LL-L "Language learning" 2002.11.20 (05) [E/S]

Wed Nov 20 23:44:37 UTC 2002

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic
               V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: John M. Tait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.11.14 (01) [E]

Helge wrote:
>
>I suppose you don't really understand written Low
>Saxon, I don't blame you, the opportunities to learn
>my native tongue these days are just too small.

I must confess you're right! I don't know German - beyond a smattering - and
although when I joined this list I did intend to tackle the continental
Lowlands languages by learning Dutch first, I confess that this went the way
of most of my good intentions!

Of course, Anglophone chauvinism is aided by the eagerness of everyone in
the world to speak English. People who want to learn Gaelic, for example,
often find it difficult to get anyone in the Gealtachd to speak it to them,
and I've heard the same complaint from people who want to learn Norwegian -
Norwegians are too keen to practise their English. I would imagine the same
would be true for Dutch. If English speakers who are keen to learn the
languages of smaller countries find it difficult, it's no small wonder that
those who aren't keen don't learn them. The usefulness of English as a
lingua france abrogates all other considerations.

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language learning

John Magnus (above):

> Of course, Anglophone chauvinism is aided by the eagerness of everyone in
the world to speak > English. People who want to learn Gaelic, for example,
often find it difficult to get anyone in the
> Gealtachd to speak it to them, and I've heard the same complaint from
people who want to learn > Norwegian - Norwegians are too keen to practise
their English. I would imagine the same would > be true for Dutch. If
English speakers who are keen to learn the languages of smaller countries >
find it difficult, it's no small wonder that those who aren't keen don't
learn them. The usefulness
> of English as a lingua france abrogates all other considerations.

I'm afraid I have to agree with you, John Magnusu.  It takes an awful lot of
motivation and self-discipline for an English speaker (native or fluently
non-native) to learn languages of countries in which the majority of people
possess fair to good English proficiency, and this would be most of Europe,
certainly in urban settings, especially Northwestern Europe.  And, yes, this
applies to Dutch speakers as well, by and large, (most of) present company
excepted (most of the time).  (Many a feeble attempt of mine to use Dutch
has earned me well-meaning and welcome private feedback from Dutch speakers
on the List. And let's not even start talking about my Scots attempts ...)

I have to confess that I have found myself guilty of the same transgression:
lapsing into English when someone tries to speak German with me, or the
other way around (in a German-speaking environment with English speakers
present).  Usually I hold my horses and let the person do his or her thing,
trying also not to "talk down" to them.  And precisely there lies the
problem in many cases.  It is good and well to have a very simple
conversation with an English-speaking learner of a language in which you are
very fluent.  However, this can be awkward, such as when you start off
speaking in English on an advanced level about complex matters, and suddenly
you are supposed to switch to the other language and the learner's
proficiency in it is nowhere nearly advanced enough to allow him or her to
continue talking about the same subject with the same degree of finesse.
Suddenly, a conversation between two adults changes into a conversation
between an adult and a child, so to speak.  It tends to feel very unnatural
and frustrating to me, and also very impeding where communication seems more
important than language learning/teaching.  It is altogether different if
you *start off* in this kind of relationship with the intention to tean and
learn (agreeing on "No English!").  I have been on both sides of this
relationship, and I can therefore relate to what often boils down to
conflicting intentions and mixed feelings for both parties.

Language learning/teaching can be frustrating in other ways also.
Oftentimes I, and other foreign students, got really sick and tired of
people in China asking me (or them) to help them practice their English
(sometimes German), most of the time strangers out in the streets when you
are trying to get your shopping done before closing time.  I sometimes felt
"mad" because *I* was there to practice *my Chinese*, not teach other people
other languages, and my speaking Chinese to them was ignored because it did
not fit into their schemes.  However, after a couple of deep breaths I would
return to the realization that I could have plenty of Chinese practice all
over the place, while in the minds of those Chinese I presented the probably
first and last opportunity to practice their foreign language.  This was not
too long after the Cultural Revolution when foreigners were still rarely
seen (and I would be the first live one ever seen by many, many people), and
unaccompanied foreigners were almost unheard of.

There is another source of frustration for someone who is addressed in their
native/fluent language by a learner of that language, namely where there is
a sociocultural component that is difficult to deal with.  To a lesser
degree you might come across this where the question of formal versus
informal address comes up in one language but not in the other, such as
using _du_ or _Sie_, or _tu_ or _vous_, with someone where this would not be
an issue in English for instance.  English is perceived as neutral turf
where people tend to feel more equal.  Where the sociocultural differences
are great, you will find that native speakers will often avoid speaking
their own language with you, because you as a stranger do not fit into the
local social tapestry, where relative social states of speaker and listener
demand a certain language form, forms of address, etc.  If the native
speaker can not speak English or another "neutral" language they will often
avoid speaking to you altogether, even where you clearly do know their
language -- not because they are rude but because they are *afraid* of being
rude by committing a linguistic faux-pas.  This is frequently encountered
for instance in Thailand, Indonesia* and Japan (*in Indonesia less so where
Indonesian [Bahasa Indonesia] is used -- which is an interethnic lingua
franca -- but it tends to happen with local languages, especially Javanese,
which, like Japanese, has various registers of politeness, depending on
relative social standing).

Oniegate, John Magnus, ...

> I must confess you're right! I don't know German - beyond a smattering -
and although when I
> joined this list I did intend to tackle the continental Lowlands languages
by learning Dutch first, I
> confess that this went the way of most of my good intentions!

... its never too late to start.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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