LL-L "Etymology" 2003.04.01 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 01.APR.2003 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Etymology"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Lowlanders,
>
> It tends to be the "small" words that give away if someone's Lowlands
Saxon
> (Low German) is _Patentplatt_, i.e., is "faked" on the basis of German.
>
> I can only give you examples for the North Saxon dialects here, because
> other standards apply in the other dialect groups.
>
> One example would be the use of _wer_ for 'who' that I have come across
> quite a few times lately. This is clearly ("High") German. In North Saxon
> dialects you would have to say _wokeen_ (_woukeyn_ [vo.U'kE.In]) or
> shortened _keen_. (Yes, the latter can coincide with _keen_ [kE.In] 'no
> ...', 'none', but the difference tends to be clear within a given
context.)
> Subjectively, you can also say _wen_ [vE.n] 'whom', in some dialects
> objectively ('who') as well.
>
> What I really wanted to talk about, actually ask about, is the LS word
> _mang_ (~ _mank_ [ma.Nk]) 'among'. People who make up Lowlands Saxon on
the
> basis of German will often say _ünner_ 'under' instead, because German
> _unter_ 'under' also means 'among', or they will say _twüschen_, because
> German _zwischen_ means both 'between' and 'among'; e.g.,
>
> German: Unter/Zwischen hundert kenne ich ihn heraus.
> LS: Mang hunnerd kenn ik em ruut.
> (* Ünner/Twüschen hunnerd kenn ik em ruut.)
> I can tell/pick him from among a hundred.
>
> As you can probably tell, LS _mang_ seems to be related to English "among"
> and Scots _amang_ (< _emong_ ~ _imong_ < _ymong_ < _onmang_ < Old English
> _on gemang_ "in a crowd/throng").
>
> I believe that these words are related to umlauted forms (e = ä < a) such
as
> German _Menge_ 'crowd', 'amount', 'number (of)', _Menggut_ 'mixture (of
> things)', _vermengen_ 'to mix', 'to blend', LS _Menggood_ ~ _Mengels_ ~
> _Mengsel_ ~ _Mengelmoos_ 'mixture (of things)', 'blend', _(ver)mengen_ ~
> _mengeleren_ 'to mix', 'to blend', Dutch _(ver)mengen_ 'to mix', 'to
blend',
> _mengsel_ ~ _mengelmoes_ 'mixture', 'blend' (same of similar forms in
> Afrikaans), Scots _ming_ 'mixture', 'blend', 'mix-up', 'confusion', and
> English "to mingle".
>
> My question (besides if we can elaborate on the etymology) is if cognates
of
> LS _mang_, English "among" and Scots _amang_ exist in other Lowlands
> language varieties.
>
> As far as I can tell, Dutch and Afrikaans use _tussen_and Westerlauwer
> Frisian _tusken_ for 'among' , meaning also 'between'.
>
> Might this _mang_/"among"/_amang_ thing be a Saxon feature?
>
> Thanks for thinking about it.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
Hello Ron !
For some time I couldn't manage to read all the LL-messages so I don't know
the actual stand of discussion but incidentally I read the message above
first and just want to add the following:
In Eastern Friesland LS "who" is _wel_ [vEl] (wel is dat ? = who is that ?)
and there is no tendency to replace this word by German _wer_ as in many
other cases where genuine EFLS words are replaced by German. ones.
For "among, between" we use either _manken_ or _tüsken_ of which _tüsken_ is
more widespread. Instead of it's sound similarity to German _zwischen_ I
don't believe it to be an adaptation. This word already appears in old East
Frisian sources as _tusken_.
There are several composite words with _tüsken_ but none  with _manken_
(tüskenin, tüskendöör).
"Mixture" or "blend" is _mengsel_.
_Unner_ is only used to denote a position below something never with the
meaning of "among".
Kind regards
Holger

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi Ron and everyone

other Frisian cognates for "among"
Old Frisian > mang/mong
Sylter > mung
Helgoland / Wiedingharder / Westerlauwers > mank
Saterfrisian > moanken
Westerlauwers Frisian > mank

The dictionaries (or word lists) I have for the other
varieties of Frisian aren't extensive enough to know
if they contain a variety of this, but my guess is
that they would.

All seem to mean 'in the middle of' thus 'among'

'Among' is also related to 'mingle' which has cognates
with (Middle) Dutch mengelen, and more distantly Old
Norse menga, and (Old) High German mengen

Hope that helps

Gary

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