LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.04.15 (07) [E]

Tue Apr 15 21:18:27 UTC 2003

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From: Jannie Lawn <J.Lawn at btopenworld.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.04.09 (06) [E]

Hai Reinhard / Ron

This site is quite new to me, but I have always been fascinated by languages
and how they connect / have common ancestry.  (I am Friesian Dutch and grew
up in a small village in central NL, with a dialect that had strong Saxon
remnants.  My interest in these things originates from comments made by my
High School teacher of Dutch Language and Literacy, who told us some
interesting facts.)

I have a question, which arose from reading recent emails.  I am a bit
puzzled by the following sentence (9 April , Re: LL-L "Language varieties"
2003.04.09 (06) [E],):
... However, I want to remind everyone that our main focus must be on the
Lowlands varieties, which German proper (including Pennsylvanish) is not
(versus Lowlands Saxon ["Low German," including Mennonite "Plautdietsch"],
which is a separate Lowlands entity and is now officially recognized as a
regional language in Northern Germany and the Eastern Netherlands).

What is the 'now officially recognised regional language in Northern Germany
and the Eastern Netherlands'?  Plautdietsch?  I thought that this is the
language spoken by the Mennonites in America, and therefore possibly a
German dialect that has changed less in isolation than its German original
ancestor.

Groeten, Jannie Lawn-Zijlstra (Cambridge, UK)

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hoi, Jannie, en wolkom op ús foarum!

The language we are talking about is what in the Netherlands is collectively
referred to as "Low(lands) Saxon" (_Nedersaksisch_):

  * Groningen dialects (mostly in the province of Groningen)
  *Drenthe dialects (in the province of Drenthe)
  *Stellingwerven dialects (in the region of Stellingwerven within the
   province of Fryslân (Friesland) and also Overijssel)
 * Overijssel dialects (in the province of Overijssel)
       * Twente dialects
       * Salland dialects
       *  Western Overijssel dialects
  * Achterhoek (in the province of Gelderland)
  * East Veluwe dialects (in Gelderland as well)

In Germany it tends to be called "Low German" (_Niederdeutsch_ or
_Plattdeutsch_, a catch-all label that also includes Low Franconian
dialects).  The surviving Saxon dialect groups:

  * Western Lowlands Saxon:
       * Northern (Lowlands) Saxon (in the northwest - with the
      Frisian-influenced dialects of Eastern Friesland, Oldenburg
      and Emsland as a special enclave within this group)
       * Westphalian (in the southwest)
       * Eastphalian (in the southeast of the Western Lowlands Saxon area)
  * Eastern Lowlands Saxon:
       * Mecklenburgish-West-Pomeranian (in the northern half of Eastern
      Lowlands Saxon)
       * Mercian-Brandenburgish (south of Mecklenburgish-West-Pomeranian)

This is one language, derived from Old Saxon, though on the Netherlands'
side
it tends to be spelled in the Dutch way and in Germany in the German way,
and there are Dutch and German influences respectively.  It has been
officially recognized as a "regional language" by both countries and thus by
the European Union, in 1997 in the Netherlands (as "Low Saxon") and 1999 in
the eight North German states (under "Low German").

"Plautdietsch" specifically refers to the Mennonite dialects of Low(lands)
Saxon/Low German.  They are (close to being, if not in fact) the sole
surviving representatives of the "West Prussian" dialects once spoken in
what is now Northern Poland (saved because the speakers emigrated before the
purge of "Germans" from the area).  LS/LG dialects used to be used from the
Eastern Netherlands all the way east to what is now Russia's Kaliningrad.
All or most of those used east of the eastern border of today's Germany and
those in Denmark are now extinct or moribund.

I encourage you to read my introduction to the language at "Lowlands Talk"
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/), either in English or in Dutch, or in one of
the other languages.  (And, folks, we could do with more help with this
project.)

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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