LL-L "Phonology" 2003.02.26 (11) [E]

Wed Feb 26 21:31:01 UTC 2003

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Jan Strunk <strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.02.26 (06) [E]

Leiwe Lü,

Actually, I've in my part of Westphalia that's the
Ruhr District (where Low Saxon has almost died out and
is only very much present as a substratum in the local High German),
people seem to pronounce word like school as
"schkaul" that is with a voiceless alveo-palatal fricative followed by
voiceless
velar stop. I don't know if this is how it has been in former days.
Maybe it is some kind of change in progress from older "sk" to newer "sh".
Or even High German influence. I have no idea. What about the rest of
Westphalia?

Gued gaon!

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Folks,
>
> Holger's posting above reminded me to ask if there are any published
dialect
> maps that show the isoglosses of _sch_, _sh_, _sx_, _sğ_, _sk_, _sj_,
etc.,
> encompassing the Lowlands Saxon and Frankish areas.
>
> We already know that in Dutch _s-ch_ (_sx_) predominates but _sk_ also
> occurs abundantly. With regard to Lowlands Saxon (Low German), my general
> estimate is that _s-ch_, _sk_ and _sğ_ predominate roughly west of Bremen.
> It
> includes all or most of the Westphalian varieties, right?  East of this
area
> it is _sch_ (as in German, as in English "ship" and "shoe"). I assume this
> includes the
> Eastphalian varieties as well. Is this about right? Isn't _sk_ also used
in
> some dialects near the Danish border?
>
> Any info would be gratefully received.
>
> Regards,
>
> Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonetics

Hi Ron and all

You asked:
"Holger's posting above reminded me to ask if there
are any published
dialect
maps that show the isoglosses of _sch_, _sh_, _sx_,
_sÄY_, _sk_, _sj_,
etc.,
encompassing the Lowlands Saxon and Frankish areas."

Just found a dialect map in the dtv-Atlas book
'Deutsche Sprache', Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag,
Munich.

On page 150 there are the dialect varieties for
Hochdeutsch 'dreschen'. In the region west of the
Weser, although the isogloss doesn't correspond
exactly, it gives the varieties 'dask, desk, düösk and
dosk'. East it gives versions with 'dosch, drösch,
dösch and dasch'. And south versions with 'dorsch,
diäsch, drosch, and dresch'.

Also there's a map for 'Schwester' on the same page,
with differences between schw- and sw-, although it
goes a bit pear-shaped in the west where the w has
been absorbed into the following vowel, producing
'süster'.

On page 151 there is a good map showing the Limburg
areas where [S] is used ranging from only in foreign
loans, to in all positions where it's used in
Hochdeutsch.

In North Frisian, the islands and Wiedingharder
dialects have sk-, but the rest of mainland North
Frisian has sch-.

Saterland Frisian has -sk in final position, but sch-
initially.

Hope this helps as well.

Gary

----------

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ron asked about pronunciations of sch

"We already know that in Dutch _s-ch_ (_sx_)
predominates but _sk_ also
occurs abundantly. With regard to Lowlands Saxon (Low
German), my
general
estimate is that _s-ch_, _sk_ and _sÄY_ predominate
roughly west of
Bremen.
It
includes all or most of the Westphalian varieties,
right?  East of this
area
it is _sch_ (as in German, as in English "ship" and
"shoe"). I assume
this
includes the
Eastphalian varieties as well. Is this about right?
Isn't _sk_ also
used in
some dialects near the Danish border?"

I have a 'Plattdeutsches Wörterbuch für das
Oldenburger Land' (Isensee Verlag, Oldenburg, ISBN
3-89598-531-7). It makes the following observation
about 'sch' (p13)

'Sch klingt in Süd-Oldenburg und in einzelnen Gegenden
von Nord-Oldenburg im Auslaut wie s-ch oder s-g
(s-chier, s-gier), im In- und Auslaut aber wie 'sk'
(wasken, Disk).'

I guess that in the other areas of North Oldenburg the
pronunciation is [S] (like ship) - it doesn't say!

It's not a map, but it might help to set limits.

Gary

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks for your responses, Jan and Gary.

Gary, I have a copy of the dtv-Atlas at home.  Cool!  I'll look at it later.

> Also there's a map for 'Schwester' on the same page,
> with differences between schw- and sw-, although it
> goes a bit pear-shaped in the west where the w has
> been absorbed into the following vowel, producing
> 'süster'.

Yeah, but that's a different creature, where the "sch" pronunciation is an
allophone of /s/ before a consonant.  The other issue relates to a phoneme
or phoneme sequence (/sx/, /sk/, /S/, etc.).

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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