LL-L "Grammar" 2003.02.28 (11) [E]

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Grammar"

> From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2003.02.27 (12) [E]
>
>   It's a mistake to apply Latin grammar in English,
>   and in English the most normal contruction is (as Ian
>   pointed out) that the "me/her/him/them" forms (I won't
>   say 'object forms' as, again, that's getting confused
>   with Latin) are used when the pronoun is used in conjuction
>   with other nouns or pronouns.
>
> So, how would you then describe these forms, using "English grammar"?
> Unfortunately, it appears that I've been under the illusion that
> I was using
> English grammar rules, when all along I was really using Latin.

This has been discussed at some length on the list
before - see:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9906B&L=lowlands-l&F=&S=&P
=1718

and related postings (of course where I wrote "ergo sum" in
that posting I really meant "ego sum" - it took me ages to
find it again because I was searching for "ego sum"!).

> What if we apply Occam's Razor?  According to your system, we need a
> convoluted system where it's correct to use the form "me" as a

What if we don't?  :)  Occam's Razor is a fall-back device
for use when there isn't enough data to distinguish between
multiple possibilities. In this case the data isn't lacking
and we can deduce the actual situation rather than just
taking the simplest possibility.

> Anyway, this is far from what my question was, to which no one
> has hitherto
> cared to respond, having thus far chosen to insinuate that I am suggesting
> that dialectical variants are "wrong" or "shameful" or whatever.

I haven't insinuated anything like this.

> So my question remains.  Is the use of one form or the other a class
> identifier in other places?  Please do not continue to assume that this
> questions represents a class or dialect prejudice on my part.

This is a difficult question because I, at least, find the
concept of "class" a difficult one to work with. At least
where I've lived, there hasn't been any real correlation
between money, speech and education that would go together
to make a consistent concept of class.

> Quite "correct" by anyone's grammar, as it is the object of the verb
> "laugh".  Your point being?

I think the point was to parody Ron's method of argumentation
in defence of "lay"  :)

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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