LL-L "Etymology" 2003.07.22 (01) [E/LS/V]

Tue Jul 22 14:21:56 UTC 2003

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L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUL.2003 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology

The Grimms' Dictionary of the German Language devotes several pages to the
word Urian, its various meanings and earliest occurrences. It is pointed out
that the dialects have probably adopted the word from the literary language
since it is absent from both the Upper German dialects and from Dutch.

The dictionary states that a number of unsuccessful attempts have been made
to explain the word, those these attempts have been limited to the origin of
its use as a name for the Devil. Jakob Grimm himself, in his book
Mythologie, for example, suggests that the word is the same as Urhans, or
'Ancient Hans', and another scholar unsuccessfully tried to claim thar Ur-
meant wild and -ian was from the name Johann, and that the ensemble denoted
'a wildman'.

Peter Snepvangers provides us with a link to a webpage about 'King' Urien of
Rheged, who is mentioned in the early Welsh poem cycle the Mabinogion, and
who was an historic person who fought the Northumbrians. The Oxford Names
companion suggests that his name is pure Celtic, deriving from Old Celtic
orbo (with macron over the first o) 'privileged' and gen 'birth'. There is a
Cornish surname too, which is usually Uren but which has many variations,
including Urien and Urian. This name was Urbgen in Old Welsh and Urbien or
Urien in Old Breton. Peter's interesting link tells us that the Latin form
of the King's name was Urbgenius and the English form Orian. The Grimms'
Dictionary too mentions Urianus, 'ein britannischer kÃ¶nig'.

On the whole this Celtic etymology seems sounder than the Germanic ones
suggested in Grimms' or the Greek one. I would think it unlikely (but admit
to not being a great scholar of Greek) that Urian could have anything to do
with Greek ouranos 'the sky, the heavens'. It could possibly be a dialectal
grammatical form deriving from ourios 'with a fair wind', and thence
'favourable', 'prospering'. Zeus was sometimes given the title Zeus ourios,
i.e. 'Zeus who sends fair winds', and therefore 'Zeus who makes things turn
out well'.

The link to the page about St. Urian's Chapel on Bembridge Isle, England, is
probably not relevant since it seems that the original form of the saint's
name was not Urian but either the French Turien or the Anglo-Saxon name
Urith, a version of an earlier Celtic name. In any case, Grimms' Dictionary
quotes one Stadler who states in his Heiligenlexikon, ''S. Urianus ist
unbekannt; er gab seinen namen einer pfarrkirche des bistums Evreux' (St.
Urian is unknown; he gave his name to a parish church in the diocese of
Evreux).

In the list of connotations of the word Urian, Grimms' Dictionary only
places it as an epithet of the Devil at number four. A brief synopsis of the
meanings is as follows:

(1) A Saint's name, rare baptismal name or unusual family name.
(2) (Especially when used in jest). A name used for someone that one cannot,
daren't, does not want to, or does not need to name. Also used to refer to
someone previously mentioned.
(3) An epithet given to an evil, terrible, obnoxious, stupid, wild, gross
individual. It is often a swearword in this meaning. Someone called K. Braun
is quoted as saying: 'im frÃ¤nk. lande, am Rhein und an der Lahn ist der u.
ein gottloser und raffinirter mensch' (In the Frankish country, on the Rhine
and on the Lahn the Urian is a Godless and refined person.)
(4) A euphemistic term for the Devil.
(5) A euphemism for death.
(6) A euphemism for the male member.
(7) (Transferred to animals:) The pig, deer or badger.
(8) The name of a tree the common 'Orleanbaum'.
(9) A name for burnt alum, used in etching.
(10) Used in a Silesian dialectal expression in which 'to call up Urian'
means to have a drink.

The semantic progression from (3) and (2) (perhaps (3) would be an older
meaning than (2)?) to (4) is easy to follow, as indeed is the one from (2),
'something one does not want to name' to the euphemisms for death and the
male member; the Silesian usage too is essentially euphemistic; and (10) is
probably because the burning of the chemical is reminiscent of the home of
the Devil.

What is not entirely clear is why a (Celtic?) name should be applied to the
other meanings. Language usage, however, is not always logical, and we might
equally ask why in English the Devil was referred to as 'Old Nick'.

Leaving Urian, I have just joined the list and I haven't had the opportunity
to see the previous discussion on High German Teufel and its Low Saxon
equivalents DÃ¼vel and Deibel, but surely it is well-known that they
originate, like the English word 'devil', via the Latin diabolus from the
Greek diabolos. (The latter originally meaning 'slanderer').'

I hope I haven't exhausted the patience of the listers with all this, but
perhaps it will shed some light on the etymology of the word Urian that has
previously been overlooked.

John Duckworth

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Etymology

Freidrich wrote,
Blangenbii: Ick haar mii freuut, wenn Du opp Sater-Freesk aantert haarst.
Ick heff disse Sassisch' Speeloort all me Leev ne seihn/höört.

't allerbest

Fiete.

Hello Fiete,
Ik zoal deze discussie an tongval overlaten naar het "taal-meisters". Een
woord definieren is zoals een snep vangen in haar vlucht.
Perhaps I should have referred to Sater Frisian as Saterland Frisian or
Seeltersk. I cannot write in Frysk but I am absolutely loving reading all
the different languages and dialects posted on this email discussion list.
The english translation posted with many emails helps me with some of the
less common words. The grammar and word comparisons of all the languages is
also absolutely great (even though I have never seen or heard half of them).
It is good to know my own language but better to also know my language
history and heritage, so keep on teaching me Fiete.
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers

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From: FrijaVlaamse at aol.com <FrijaVlaamse at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.07.21 (01) [E]

Mooin, Fiete, en Peiter,

       Ne Lucifer füürcht mick, mo disser almachtiige Götten
Doe war du wollst soll seyn de hëël Gewëëtzt

Du Schreevst: is Jau dat aalltohaup tau brüttig föör LL-L?  Ick sey Jaa,
datt is wey aalltohaup föör mick!   Zssss!  :-D

Na- denn koomt jo woll ditt Thema gaud taupass:

Vöör'n Stücker watt Doog snacken wii över 'n [LS] "Düvel", ook "Deibel" (E:
"devil", UG: "Teufel", koomt woll aff von [UG] "Tolpatsch", "Tölpel", [LS]
"Tüffel") un' kööm 'n doorbii opp dennen aulen "Urian".
De "DUDEN" seggt:  "[leidigen], ne' willkoom' n Gast" (UG: "unwillkommener
Gast", auch: "Teufel"; E: "unwelcomed guest", "devil").

Opp Hauchdüütsch hefft wi noch meihr Wöör' föör dissen Knebel: [UG:]
"Beelzebub", "der Gehörnte", "Satan", "Lucifer"....

Is' "Urian" 'n Sassisch Woord or koomt dat woll annerwärts her?

't Scheynt datt unsere goede Peiter över de frääge um de wöörd‘ ’Tüffel‘
hebt Richt :

          In der Greek-English Leksikon Uutgääve 7, Liiddel & Scott's (1999)
't sey
ouranios= hemmelik, vun of in hemmel; väällen vun Hemmel

Entschuld mie vo m'n slechts Nederssassich, mo dit is de erste tid dadde
ikke heb  traadde gebruuk 't..
Dank Gie Fiete vo je vriendlik uutlegging in Ingels, ze is veêl hupvol.

Frijâ van des Haegghediessen
Galla en Presteres an Kybellê en Nehellenia Goddin

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: A Dutch etymology

Hello, Lowlanders!

When in Amsterdam I have often heard people taking their leave of each other
saying something like doe-ii (I am representing this in Dutch orthography as
best as I can). Can any of you enlighten me by suggesting an origin for this
curious usage? It seems too much of a stretch of the imagination to see the
words 'Tot ziens' behind the phrase. Also, am I wrong if I say that the word
seems to be used mainly by women?

I look forward to any illuminating replies,

John Duckworth

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