LL-L "Language policies" 2003.11.18 (02) [E]

Tue Nov 18 15:52:36 UTC 2003

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2003.11.17 (07) [E]

At 06:37 PM 11/17/03 -0800, Uilleam wrote:
>The Episcopalian Church does have a large Spanish-language ministry, and I
>believe a smaller
>European-language (multiple) ministry in our diocese in the Europe. We have
>lots of Spanish
>language diocese outside the USA, and there used to be a large amount of
>French congregations (enough to warrant the translation of the Book of
>Common Prayer into French). However, I have no checked these, so if anyone
>has more accurate information, go right ahead.

Go to http://www.anglicancommunion.org/tour/index.cfm.  Note there are
Anglican provinces in many languages.  My own diocese has been partnered
for the last several years for the Diocese of Cuba
(http://www.cuba.anglican.org/) which is 100% Spanish speaking.

Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2003.11.17 (05) [E]

Ron,

I don't believe immersion language teaching represents an "all or nothing"
approach as you describe. I think Mike was pointing out that in Anglo-Saxon
countries - with perhaps the exception of Canada - language teaching is a
particularly low official priority and that children in those are left to
believe foreign languages are unnecessary.

If I may be so bold I do not think your anecdotes of isolated German- and
French-language proficiency in British and Australian secondary students is
representative of the general linguistic nonchalance among teenagers in
Anglo-Saxon countries. Having been through the British system myself and
worked at Australian schools I can easily counter with my own anecdotes of
absolute language insouciance.

Immersion teaching has immense benefits, as the Gaeilscoileanna
(Irish-medium education) in Ireland and the kohanga reo (Maori-language
schooling) in Aotearoa have shown. As far as I am aware, English is taught
in this way in most European schools from a very early age - the English
proficiency of most Europeans shows this method works. By contrast, in most
Anglo-Saxon foreign language classrooms the immersion method is not used,
children only have to learn a foreign tongue when they reach secondary
school (i.e., age eleven to sixteen) and by this time most actively resist
it as both boring and difficult.

While obviously some language teaching - even on the kind of half-hearted,
damned-if-you-do Anglo-Saxon model - is preferable to none, there is much to
recommend an early start using the immersion method which is, after all, how
we all learn our mother tongues in the first place.

Criostóir.

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2003.11.17 (07) [E]

Hi Ron, Gregory, Lowlanders,
Re: Recent exchanges about language teaching.
Yes, I oversimplified, overshot the mark.
You should know me by now and make allowances for that, Ron  :-)
Seriously, I take your points and believe you when you say that language
teaching
to children has improved in recent decades.
Here and there I get an inkling of it, my remarks however where based on a
tiny statistical sample that I heave access to, primarily in France, and
that is pretty devastatating.
For example, I strongly believe that a foreign language can only be taught
correctly by natural
speakers, at least as far as oral communication skills are concerned, which
should be primary, but mostly are tertiary or worse. German, English,
Spanish... are taught by locals, who
mostly are excellent academics in the field of their chosen foreign language
but when it comes to speaking, children learn the teachers´ accents
on top of their own :-(
I´d like to underline one thing Gregory wrote "There are numerous
misconceptions,
including the one that it is very difficult and requires exceptional
intelligence. "
Most of us LLs don´t need proof of that, but if you need one day to convince
a doubting Thomas,
send her/him to me.
My 4 kids, of average intelligence, grew up tri-lingually, and in
kindergarten they had to acquire
two more. They are now fluent in 5 languages. Nothing to brag about, they
had the good luck
of quinco-lingual immersion at a young age. All kids can do likewise.
But it´s hard to overcome prejudices, Gregory, my kids are sometimes pitied
for their
hard lot of having to communicate in so many toungues.
"Tough luck, those poor children!"
Mike Wintzer

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language policies

Críostóir,

You may have misunderstood me.  I was not saying that immersion teaching is
bad.  I was saying it's ideal and should be aspired to, but I think it is
unhelpful, if not counter-productive, to poo-poo everything short of that.
Some school districts simply do not have the resources for that sort of
program, especially when they start off.   By saying anything less than
immersion teaching is garbage would discourage such districts to put in
place at least a modest program to start with.   Lame teaching can be found
anywhere, including in immersion programs.  (I have experience it
first-hand.)  Teaching can be good in a modest program also.  The main thing
is that one strives toward getting the best possible results with what one
has, at least gives the students a start, imparts confidence and awareness
of possibilities and directs them to further resources.

Mike:

> Yes, I oversimplified, overshot the mark.
> You should know me by now and make allowances for that, Ron  :-)

I do, and bless your heart, which obviously is in the right place!  Just
once in a while I need to say, "Nu maal sinnig mit dey jungen peyrd'!" (lit.
"Steady now with the young horses!").  ;)

> I´d like to underline one thing Gregory wrote "There are numerous
misconceptions,
> including the one that it is very difficult and requires exceptional
intelligence. "

It was I who wrote that.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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