LL-L "Names" 2003.09.01 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] <marco at evenhuiscommunicatie.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2003.08.31 (08) [E]

Luc Hellinckx wrote:

> "Petronilla" would surely have been "Nelleke" in Brabantish, but in
> Sint-Omaars people
> spoke Flemish of course *s*. In Kortrijk (Flanders) therefore, forms like
> "Peroenne",
> "Peroenkin" and "Nella" have been attested as early as 1400 A.D. I can't
> tell you much
> about "Guilbertus" unfortunately. Originally, the names "Gillebertus" and
> "Giselbertus" coincided. In Brabant anyway, we would say something like
"de
> Zjille" or
> "den Beire" these days.

In Zeelandic, a regional language very closely related to the West-Flemish
(or even more: Artesian) of Sint Omaars (Saint Omer), Petronella is either
"Nele", "Neeltje" or "Piete", "Pie". I think this goes for West-Flemish as
well. Guilbertus is "Gilles" in Zeelandic and I bet that's the same in
West-Flemish as well.
A short remark about the language of Sint Omaars:  a lot of linguists find
that the dialect of this city should be called South-Flemish or (Germanic)
Artesian. There were quite a  number of differences between the West-Flemish
of neighbouring villages in what is now the French départment Nord (once
part of the county of Flanders) and the germanic dialects once spoken in
parts of what is now the départment Pas-de-Calais (once part of the county
of Artesia - Artois). Within the area where this now extinct South-Flemish
was spoken,  Sint Omaars was probably part of a transitional area of
dialects with both West and South Flemish characteristics.

regards,

Marco [Evenhuis]

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From: Frédéric Baert <baert_frederic at CARAMAIL.COM>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2003.08.29 (08) [E]

Hi Michael
You asked :

>The church records of the time are in latin, and i'm wondering if
>anyone has any idea what the latin names "Guilbertus" (a man) and
>"Petronilla" (a woman) would have been in Flemish. Thanks!

I'm an inhabitant of french flanders and many of my feminine ancestors
called Petronilla. The french version for this name is Petronille but I've
found this name with many orthographs faults which could come from the
flemich pronunciation. The most interesting is I think remember I saw it
written "Pieternille" or "Pieternelle". I will verify this this week-end.
It would be logic as Petronilla is a feminine version of "Petrus" ("Peter"
in english, "Pieter" in flemish).

"Guilbertus" is the french name "Gilbert" which is the name of my uncle.
All the flemish-speaking persons I know (even in Belgium) call my uncle
pronunciating his name as in french. The old name in flemish must have been
different since flemish as dutch don't have a real "g". The syllab "Guil"
is the same as in the french name "Guillaume" which is "William" in
English. In flemish, I know this name is "Willem". So the point is that the
consonnant "w" of english and flemish was always tanscribed "G" in latine
or french (see also the english and old flemish "Wales" which is "Gaules"
in french and "Gallia" in latine).
So I think the name "Guilbertus" must have been in old flemish something
like "Wilbert" or "Willibert".

But in Flanders like in other lowlands languages, nicknames are always used
instead of the real first name so it's difficult to know what was the names
that people used to speak with your ancestors.

Best regards
Frederic Baert.

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From: Allison Turner-Hansen <hallison at gte.net>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2003.08.29 (08) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,
    I have a question slightly off this topic but stimulated by it.

 Luc Hellinckx wrote:

     "The last "Moorsel" is Brabantish and the form "Morslo" (1139 A.D.)
shows that it originally designated "marshy woodland"."

    So my question is: is the -loo in 'Waterloo' the same as this -lo in
'Morslo'?   If not, do any of you know what it might be?

Thank You,
Allison Turner-Hansen

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