LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.21 (12) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 21.APR.2004 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.21 (06) [E]

Dear George:
    I hear you; & correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Bishop Ulfilas'
Visigothic Paternoster start, "Atta unsar thu in Himinam ---"?
    Yrs Sincerely, Mark Dreyer

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.21 (09) [E]


Ron wrote (of the 'father our' anomaly)
"(2) is a holdover from a time in which this was the normal (Indo-European)
construction, including also the placement of adjectives (as still found in
Romance and Celtic)."

I'm far from a Celtic specialist, but I've always instinctively felt the
Irish constructions _mo_ (my) _ár_ (our) and so on to be fairly recent
developments, largely because ownership in the English sense is an
exceptionally hazy concept in Celtic languages.

I don't know about other languages in the group, but Cornish and Irish share
what appears to be an older construction, _dom_ and _thebm_, formed from to
+ me. In Irish at least _dom_ is still used to indicate roundabout
ownership, e.g., _is col ceathar dom é_ - he is a cousin of mine (lit. is
cousin to me he), where the form _is mo chol ceathar é_ would also be
permissable.

In the Cornish paternoster, we find the strange construction _agon taze nye_
(lit. our father we). _agon_, I am convinced (although the suggestion has
been roundly dismissed by a Cornish scholar I asked) is related to Irish
_againn_ formed from at + we and used to signal group ownership, e.g., _tá
an vóta againn_ - we have the vote (lit. is the vote at us).

Go raibh maith agat

Criostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Syntax

Mark (above):

>     I hear you; & correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Bishop Ulfilas'
> Visigothic Paternoster start, "Atta unsar thu in Himinam ---"?

   ATTA UNSAR, þu in himinam,
   weihnai NAMO ÞEIN,
   qimai ÞIUDINASSUS ÞEINS,
   wairþai WILJA ÞEINS,
   swe in himina jah ana airþai.
   HLAIF UNSARANA þana sinteinan gif uns himma daga,
   jah aflet uns þatei skulans sijaima,
   swaswe jah weis afletam þaim skulam unsaraim,
   jah ni briggais uns in fraistubnjai,
   ak lausei uns af þamma ubilin;
   unte þeina ist þiudangardi
   jah mahts jah wulþus in aiwins.
   Amen

Old Saxon:


   FADAR ÛSA firiho barno,
   thu bist an them hôhon himila rîkea,
   geuuîhid sî THÎN NAMO uuordo gehuuilico.
   Cuma THÃŽN CRAFTAG RÃŽKI.
   Uuerða THÎN UUILLEO oƀar thesa uuerold alla,
   sô sama an erðo, sô thar uppa ist
   an them hôhon himilo rîkea.
   Gef ûs dago gehuuilikes râd, drohtin the gôdo,
   THÎNA Hà LAGA HELPA, endi alât ûs, heƀenes uuard,
   managoro mênsculdio, al sô uue ôðrum mannum dôan.
   Ne lât ûs farlêdean lêða uuihti
   sô forð an IRO UUILLEON, sô uui uuirðige sind,
   ac help ûs uuiðar allun uƀilon dâdiun.

Old English:

   FÆDER URE þu þe eart on heofonum;
   si ÞIN NAMA gehalgod
   to becume ÞIN RICE
   gewurþe ÞIN WILLA
   on eorðan swâ-swâ on heofonum.
   urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg
   and forgyf us URE GYLTAS
   swâ-swâ we forgyfað urum gyltendum
   and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge
   ac alys us of yfele soþlice.

Old Northumbrian:

   FADER USÆR ðu arð (~ bist) in heofnu (~ heofnas)
   Sie gehalgad NOMA ÐIN.
   Tocymeð RÍC ÐIN.
   Sie WILLO ÐIN
   suæ is in heofne and in eorðo.
   HLAF USERNE of'wistlic sel ús todæg,
   and f'gef us SCYLDA USRA,
   suæ uoe f'gefon SCYLDGUM USUM.
   And ne inlæd usih in costunge,
   ah is in heofne and in eorðo.

Old Alemannic:

   FATER UNSà R, thû pist in himile,
   uuîhi NAMUN DÎNAN,
   qhueme RÃŽHHI DÃŽN,
   uuerde UUILLO DÃŽN,
   sô in himile sôsa in erdu.
   PROOTH UNSÃ R emezzihic kip uns hiutu,
   oblâz uns SCULDI UNSà RO,
   sô uuir oblâzêm uns sculdîkêm,
   enti ni unsih firleiti in khorunka,
   ûzzer lôsi unsih fona ubile.

Old German:

   FATER UNSER, thu thar bist in himile,
   si giheilagot THIN NAMO,
   queme THIN RIHHI,
   si THIN UUILLO,
   so her in himile ist, so si her in erdu,
   UNSAR BROT tagalihhaz gib uns hiutu,
   inti furlaz uns UNSARA SCULDI,
   so uuir furlazemes UNSAREN SCULDIGON;
   inti ni gileitest unsih in costunga,
   uzouh arlosi unsih fon ubile.


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================