LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.25 (11) [E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.25 (01) [E/German]

John Feather wrote:
> As they often do, false friends may lurk. I recently
> came across "mor" for the layer of decaying litter in (Swedish) pine
> forests. Any connexion?

Well, the primary meaning of the word "mor" in Swedish is "mother", and this
is how I understand the term. I think this may be related to German
"Mutterboden" (literally "mother soil"), which denotes the fertile top layer
of soil in which plants grow. Since this natural mulch layer is where most
biological activies take place, compounds are broken down and rotting
material is converted into more fertile soil, it provides basic nourishment
for all life forms.

Gabriele Kahn

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From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.25 (01) [E/German]

Hello John,

The only correct form of the expression is "te allen tijde". 'Tijde', and
not 'tijden', because the noun is clearly singular. Compare the expression
in colloquial speech: 'de hele tijd' (approx. all the time). 'Te allen
tijde' is a rather stilted, time-honoured expression, not normally used in
spoken language. 'Allen' is an old  inflected weak form. We do not use 'ten'
(from preposition 'te' + definite article in the inflected form 'den')
because 'de' is absolutely out of the question before 'al'. In Flemish 'den'
is regularly used as a euphonic form before an initial t,d, r, h  (in some
dialects also before b) in masculine nouns and adjectives preceding such
nouns. 'Den' is indicative of the masculine gender and used to be a great
help for school children in the days when gender was still playing an
important part in Dutch grammar. But 'te allen tijde' and 'ten tijde van' do
not belong to the Flemish vernacular.
I hope these reflection may throw more light on the issue of 'te allen
tijde', which is also a problem and a source of uncertainty to many
Dutch-speaking people as corroborated by the the numerous deviating forms
that you found during your search with Alta Vista.

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven

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From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.25 (01) [E/German]

> From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: Etymology
[knip]
>
> There is another root with a very similar semantic range which I recall as
> *auwja: I'm not sure whether that is Common Germanic or earlier. It gives
us
> - German -au = river (especially in Bavaria/Austria?)
> - Eng "eyot", "ait" = island
> - the Scand words for "island"
> - the first element of Ger "Eiland"
> - Dutch/North German place-names in -oog and -oie
> - "English" place-names in -ey and -sea, where the genitive "s" gave
"-sey"
> and the word was remodelled. So we have in the Channel Islands "Alderney"
> and "Guernsey" and on or adjacent to the mainland "Portsea" and
"Battersea".
> Another false friend!
> Eng "island" comes from the same source but was modified by association
with
> "isle" from Lat "insula".
>
> John Feather
> johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

As to "island": this is related to West Frisian "eilân" [aIlO:n] or
[E.IlO:n]. This word also exists in North Frisian (Fering ailun or something
like that), and has been borrowed into Dutch "eiland" as well. (well, the
word could also have belonged to the Ingvaeonic/Frisian substrate in western
provinces, like North-Holland). Also "-each" as a suffix in island names
(like Skiermountseach) occurs. Also there is the Old Frisian name "ee" (for
water/river) with [e:] from umlauted au, as is normal in Frisian. This is
modern West Frisian "Ie" (name of a river) (the "Dutch" name is still the
Old Frisian "Ee"), and also occurs as "Die" (from " de Ie") in the province
of North-Holland, and also as "IJ" (the big water to the north of
Amsterdam), where the Frisian name "Ie" was false interpreted as being an Ie
from [i:] and "corrected" to "IJ", the usual offspring of this long [i:].

Henno Brandsma

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.25 (03) [E]

John Feather wrote:
> John D mentioned "rum" in his dialect meaning "strange" or "queer". It's
> actually very widespread geographically though probably not much used
today.
> I tend to think of it as the sort of word a retired major meeting Hercule
> Poirot might use to describe the goings-on at Puzzlecombe Manor.

Actually, I first came across this word in the James Herriott stories where,
in Yorkshire dialect, people refer to various farm animals as "He's a rum
un!"

Gabriele Kahn

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From: Michael Keach <mike at keach.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.25 (03) [E]

<-----Original Message----->
          From: Lowlands-L
      Sent: 8/25/2004 10:52:42 AM
      To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
      Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.25 (03) [E]

      John Feather wrote:

      >John D mentioned "rum" in his dialect meaning "strange" or "queer".
It's
      >actually very widespread geographically though probably not much used
today.
      >I tend to think of it as the sort of word a retired major meeting
Hercule
      >Poirot might use to describe the goings-on at Puzzlecombe Manor.


      And that, too, is interesting to know.  I have heard throughout my
life people commenting on someone's misfortune using the phrase: "Well,
that's a bit of rum luck, I'd say!"  I'd always assumed (I know, I know:
don't ever assume . . .) it meant something along the lines of "bad" luck.
And therein lies the problem:  I could never figure out why 'rum' was used
as a pejorative when everyone knows how wonderful it is!

      Thanks John and everyone for the insight on Meer.  Enlightening, to
say the least.

      -Mike in Tampa


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