LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.26 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 26.AUG.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.25 (12) [E/Cornish]


Dan Prohaska wrote:
"I have also heard accounts where vast areas of the continent were
de-populated in the 5th and 6th centuries. It is hard to believe that this
has nothing to do with emigration to Britain."

There were a host of inter-connected catastrophes during the sixth century,
and David Keys in his book Catastrophe: An
Investigation into the Origins of the Modern World (London: Random House,
2000) fairly conclusively - at least to the lay reader - tracks these dwon
as the consequences of vast environmental change following a volcanic
eruption in Indonesia.

Among others, he cites (off the top of my head): the movement of the Turks
from Turkestan; famine in Ireland and the subsequent simplification of Old
Irish; movements of the plague, revolution in Korea and - the greatest
tragedy of them all from my point of view - the Germanic movements that led
to the colonisation of Britain and the displacement of the indigenous
Brythonic speakers there.

It's well-researched and exciting to read - highly recommended.

Críostóir.

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From: Dan Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Stella en Henno wrote:

>>John:

>> The fact that these two old islands [Foehr and
>> Amrum in his spelling] have been continuously inhabited, and indeed
>>densely
>> populated, since the early Stone Age or the end of the last Ice Age, may
>>be
>> why the Ferring language has some archaic structures and words which do
>> not occur in the other Frisian languages, pointing to a pre-Germanic >>
>> origin."
>> Of course, being non-Frisian is not the same thing as being non-Germanic.
>> Does anybody know what these special linguistic features are? Why should
>> these islands remain populated and therefore be different from the rest
>>and the neighbouring mainland especially if, as Bede suggested, it was the
>>area abandoned by the Angles and left vacant?

>By my limited knowledge of Fering (due to the course I did some years
>ago),all features of Fering can be explained either from Old Frisian or as
>loans from Danish, Low German or Dutch. There is a strange grammatical
>feature of two types of definite article (di/ju vs at/a), which is its
>biggest "claim to fame" within Frisian linguistic literature. But to
>explain this is "pre-Germanic" is going to far, I think. In most respects
>it's still remarkably Frisian for a dialect so geographically distant from
>West Frisian
>(from the point of view of a West Frisian, of course, they would see it
>the other way around).
>Henno Brandsma

Henno,
I was under the impression that the two forms of the article (don't you mean
pronouns???) were based on enclitic forms. They are surely later
developments internal to Frisian, though similar developments occur
throughout the Germanic language family. Even south-western dialect English
has such forms.
Dan

Stella en Henno:

>>Is that the development of Anglian in Great Britain, or is something
>>known about the mainland situation??

The point I have been trying to bring across - and it proves harder than
expected - is, that apart from the name there is no "Continental Anglian".
The speakers that remained were absorbed by Low Saxon speakers or the
language of the area developed directly into Low Saxon.

I believe Anglian to be a dialect of Old English - a colonial language that
emerged from the levelling of the spoken language of the immigrants. The
"three tribes" and "three ships" and "three leaders" that Aelfric mentions
were the three initially separate settlement areas. But all three were
colonial levelled dialects.

>>Indeed this is one of the main reasons. The /y/ became /I/, while /ö/
>>became /E/ in these dialects.
>>But these de-roundings are common in Ingvaeonic areas, indeed. Some of
>>these caused palatalisation in Frisian (brutsen = broken eg), but some did
>>not (as "rêch" (rag in Fering) vs "ridge" in English) so maybe something
>>about relative chronology can be said here?

Careful! Many of these palatalisations, or failings of such, can be ascribed
to later analogical levelling. A relative chronology of the development of
Old English, Old Saxon and Old Frisian is indeed interesting. Again one has
to be careful. There are only few features which are unmistakably common
developments. Many developments that may appear similar differ when analysed
in detail, both in the way they came about as well as WHEN they emerged. Of
course all these languages bore within them certain inherent tendencies of
the 'Proto-language', such as the tendency for palatalisation or rather,
developing palatal affricates. But looking at the distribution in the
dialects they seem to have come about individually, though they were working

out an inherent tendency of articulation.
Dan

>john feather :
>On 18 Aug I asked, referring to my posting of 17 Aug:

>>>a) do my definitions of OE and LG seem reasonable?; b) is there a need
>>>for a term to cover OS and OE? ...<

>Dan and Troy posted interesting replies but didn't actually address these
>questions. Since nobody has objected to my definitions of OE and Low German
>I assume they are sound.

I'm sorry. I've deleted the post with your definition of OE and OS in the
mean time. Would you be so kind as to re-post a summary so we can be sure
about this? Thank you.

>Question (b) perhaps ought to have read: Is there a need for a term to
>cover just OS and OE and nothing else?

>Dan and Troy brought in the terms "Ingvaeonic" and "North-Sea Germanic" for
>the smallest linguistic grouping which would include OE and OS, the third
>and last member being OF.

>I had thought that "Ingvaeonic" in this sense had been abandoned and was
>now only used for certain linguistic features ("Ingvaeonisms") which I
>would define as those (other than ones which clearly derive from historical
>contacts with the North Germanic [Scandinavian] languages) which are common
>to Low Saxon, Frisian, English and Dutch but are not found in High German,
>_except_ where the difference is attributable to the High German Sound
>Shift. Since ethnically/culturally the Franks whose language is the main
>progenitor of Dutch were not part of the North Sea Germanic group the
>linguistic definition does not coincide with an ethnic one.

That would be a negative definition of the non-High-German dialects. No, I
think you can put up a positive linguistic definition of the features of
Ingvaeonic:

Though the Ingvaeonic model has often been questioned and re-modelled I
still believe it holds true, at least in the sense that certain common
Ingvaeonic developments took place in coastal West-Germanic dialects. These
coastal dialects were transplanted to Britain to become English whereas
chore Ingvaeonic "retreated" in favour of encroaching southern, inland
dialects and dialectal forms. English and Frisian remain as Ingvaeonic
relics, with Ingvaeonic substrate features showing more or less strongly in
Low Franconian (Dutch) and Low Saxon. So one could say:

"Invaeonic Model" holds that the common features of E and F were not
exclusive to them but were also shared by (at least some dialects of) OS.
Consequently no two or three languages are more closely related to the other
than they are to the third. Later developments might have obscured the
participation of OS in the Ingvaeonic changes.

>Ingvaeonic features include loss of the nasal in words such as (mainly in
>the modern languages) E "goose", Du "goes", Fr "goes" (cf HG "Gans", Du
>"gans"); E "five", Du "vijf", Fr "fiif" (cf HG "fuenf", On "fimm", Sw
>"fem", Gr "penta"); E "other", OS "othur", Fr "oar" (cf HG "ander", Du
>"ander", Sw "annan"). In the case of "other"/"ander" the HG form has tended
>to push out the others in areas of linguistic contact. Another feature is
>the loss of "-r" from certain pronouns, eg E "we", Du "wij", Fr "wy",
>Sw/Dan "vi" (HG "wir"): ON has "ver" but East ON has "wi".

The loss of -r is common to West Germanic with High German retaining it as a
conservative feature in the pronouns. The continental Scandinavian
development I suspect is unrelated and linked with loss of -r as a case
indicator (my suspicion).

Here are the typical features of Ingvaeonic:

(1) Front reflex of PG (Proto-Germanic) long /e:/1: OE (WS = West Saxon)
<daed>, (A = Anglian) <ded>; OF <ded(e)>; OHG (Old High German) <tat> with
/a:/, 'deed'.

(2) Fronting of WG (West Germanic) short /a/: OE <daeg>; OF <dei>; OHG
<tag> 'day';

(3) Rounding of PG long /e:/1 before a nasal: OE, OF <mona> with /o:/;
OHG <mano>.

(4) Rounding of WG short /a/ before nasal: OE, OF <lond>; OHG <lant>
'land'.

(5) Loss of nasal with compensatory lengthening before a homorganic
spirant: OE <toP> (P = thorn), OF <toth> both with long /o:/; OE, OF *<gos>
(cf. WF <goes>, Wang.F <gôs>), OE, OF <us>; OE, OF <fif> (long /i:/); OHG
<zand> 'tooth', <gans> 'goose', <fimf> 'five', <uns> 'us'.

(6) Rounded reflex of PG long nasalized /a~:/: OE, OF <brohte>; OHG
<brahta> 'brought'.

(7) "Breaking" or "Fracture": OE <reoht>, OF <riuht>; OHG <reht>
'right'.

(8) Reflexes of vowels in unaccented syllables: OE, OF <mona> 'moon';
OHG <mano>; OE, OF <sunne> 'sun'; OHG <sunna>.

(9) Palatalisation of velar consonants: E <cheese>, OF *<tsese> (cf. WF
<tjiis>; Wang.F <sîz> ); G <Käse>. Also OE <daeg>, OF <dei>; G <Tag>.

(10) Uniform plural ending in the present plural indicative and preterite
verb paradigms: OE <beraD> (D = eth), OE <berath>; OHG <berumes, birit,
berant> '(we, you they) carry'.

>Dan suggested
>that modern LS has lost its Ingvaeonic features but someone else (sorry,
>can't find the posting) said that not less than one has been preserved in
>not less than one dialect (sorry to be so precise but see above). What is
>the true picture here?

>In the absence of any other suggestions I propose calling OE and OS
>collectively "Bisaxual" but hope never to hear or see it used.

Funny - I really like that term, made me laugh - though there is no need for
it in my opinion.

It is impossible to group English Saxon and Continental Saxon together
without counting in Frisian. It would actually make more sense to group
Saxon and Frisian together as "Continental Ingvaeonic" and English as
"Colonial Ingvaeonic". Certain developments, especially where the
monophthongisation of Proto West Germanic *ai and *au are concerned, Frisian
can be more closely linked to Saxon (at least dialectally, if not as a
whole), than to English.

I'd keep all three in one term... "Trisaxual"??? ;-)

Dan

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