LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.08.28 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 28.AUG.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.28 (04) [E]

John Feather wrote:
"I thought I'd pass on the results of an updated search of AltaVista set to
Worldwide and All Languages, this time including "ter ..".

ten allen tijde 32,900
ten allen tijden 1,970
ten allen tijd 75
ten alle tijde 48,000
ten alle tijd 218
ten alle tijden 44,900
te allen tijden 1,630
te allen tijde 179,000
te allen tijd 371
te alle tijden 378
te alle tijde 556
te alle tijd 13
ter alle tijden 106
ter alle tijde 90
ter alle(n) tijd 0
ter allen tijden 13
ter allen tijde 22

Thus 16 out of the 18 theoretically possible variations which can be formed
from te/(r/n), alle/n, tijd/e/n can actually be found in this "database". To
clarify the point, these are not just variations which turn up in newspapers
and speech: some are from legal documents such as conditions of sale."

For what it's worth, ten alle tye is the most widely used in Afrikaans. If
you search in Google, you get about 2000 more hits for "ten" than for "ter".
I am sure that there might be many afrikaans speaker who will disagree, but
I think that "ten alle tye" is a very formal and rather stiff way of saying
"altyd". It's the kind of expression you might encounter in a church
bulletin, but not that often in colloquial speech.

Liza du Plooy

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Liza (above):

> I am sure that there might be many afrikaans speaker who will disagree,
> but I think that "ten alle tye" is a very formal and rather stiff way of
saying
> "altyd". It's the kind of expression you might encounter in a church
bulletin,
> but not that often in colloquial speech.

Thanks, Liza.

I find those "Dutch" archaisms in Afrikaans pretty interesting.

Speaking of Lowlands Saxon (Low German), at least of the North Saxon
dialects east of the German-Netherlands border, it has been, by and large, a
spoken language rather than a written one since its decline following
Germanization of the north.  Though literature is pretty plentiful, it
represents almost entirely the spoken everyday varieties, and a formal
oratory style did not develop (or had died out), given that the language has
rarely been allowed to be used in oratory, it's use in church sermonsbeing
mostly a case of "talking down," of rendering religious teachings in "plain
language."  My point is that archaisms are few and far between, and those
that seem to be archaisms are really literal translations of German oratory
archaisms.  I can imagine that it is a bit harder to see the picture among
the Saxon dialects of the Netherlands, given the relative closeness between
LS and Dutch.  In other words, I imagine it is more difficult to see what is
a loan from the national power language.

The closest I can render Dutch _te allen tijde_ (etc.) and Afrikaans _ten
alle tye_ in North Saxon of Germany is _vör al(le) tyden_ (<för al(le)
Tieden> [fœ.3` a.l(e) 'ti:dn], in some dialects _... tyen_ ['ti:(e)n]).
This is close to German _für alle Zeiten_.  This would mean 'for all times'
in the sense of 'eternally'.  'At all times' in the sense of 'always' would
be _altyd_ (<alltiet> "all-time") among others.  This might also be used in
the sense of 'anytime'.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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