LL-L "Etymology" 2004.12.03 (04) [E]

Fri Dec 3 17:39:14 UTC 2004

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L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Carl Witzel <cwitzjr at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.12.02 (14) [E]

Ron wrote:

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Carl!

Now I see where you are going with this.

Those are all very interesting questions, Carl, and apparently not very easy
ones.

At the very least for now ...

> And the question arises as to whether _Wizelin_ is LS, Frankish, or OHG?

I would not expect it to be Saxon, not Low Franconian either.  It looks
rather Old German.

However ...

There is this Saint Vicelin (Vicelinus, Vincelin, Vizelin, Wissel, Witzel,
Wizelin), the Apostle of Holstein (which used to be partly Slavonic) and of
the Obodrites (~ Abodrites, a Western Slavonic people of the greater Elbe
region and in what is now roughly Mecklenburg, possibly a far-western
community of Pomeranians).  Nevertheless, the fact that he worked in the
north should not make us jump to the conclusion that he was a Northerner, or
that his name is even Germanic.  For all we know, it could even be Latin
(*vicellinus 'neighbor' [dim.]?), or it could be of Slavonic origin.

Note that, like all Lowlands varieties, Lowlands Saxon has not undergone the
German t > ts shift, which makes the sequence /ts/ very rare, and then
mostly across morpheme boundaries.

But, let's assume this saint *was* from the area in the north ...  Couldn't
he have been a Slav, an Obodrite himself?

I can well imagine that Witzel is one of the many Germanicized Slavonic
names.  (And I take the claim that Wetzel is derived from Werner with a
large grain of salt, though it may well be true in some southern German
dialects.)

Slavonic origin of surnames is not always readily apparent (e.g., Mücke from
Sorbian Muka).  If it has been Saxonized, then I would not consider the
vowel difference in Witzel and Wetzel a real problem, given that this
variation is very common among LS dialects (e.g., hin ~ hen, dinken ~
denken, hill ~ hell, analogous to u ~ o, e.g., vun ~ von, hult ~ holt).

By no stretch of the imagination do I claim to have the answer.  I just wish
to open your mind to the possibility of a Slavonic origin.  Here just a few
knowns:

Wizlaw (= Viclav) was a very common first name, the name of several Slavonic
kings of the Rugian area (in today's state of Mecklenburg and Western
Pomerania).  Orthographic variations: Wizlaf, Wizlaff, Wizlav, Witzlaw,
Witzlaf, Witzlaff, Witzlav, Vizlav, Wislaw, Wieslaw, Wislaus, Wizlaus,
Vitislaus, Vicislaus, Witzan, Wilzan.  Witzlaff, Wetzlaff, Witzlaf, Wetzlaf,
etc., are not uncommon as "German" surnames.  I assume this name is related
to Czech Václav, Polish Wacław and Russian Вячеслав (Vjačeslav, Vyacheslav),
which are related to Venceslaus and Venceslav* (> Italian Venceslao, Spanish
Venceslás, Hungarian Vencel, German Wenzeslaus > Wenzel).  Apparently, this
personal name that also developed into a surname is derived from Slavonic
*_ventie_ 'more' and *_slav_ 'glory' > Old Church Slavonic Вѩштеславѹ
_Vęšteslavŭ_ (<ę> being a nasal /e/**).

*(Yes, it's the name of the good king in the Christmas song.)

** (Note that some West Slavonic varieties -- especially Lechitic ones:
Polish, Kashubian and Polabian -- have retained nasal vowels that demand
insertion of phonetic [n] before (palato-)dentals such as /s/, /t/ and /c/;
hence (/e~c/ -> [Ents]) Venceslaus, Wenzelsaus, Wenceslaw, etc., as variants
of the above.)

The "German" surname Wenzel or Wenzl is supposed to be derived from these
Slavonic names, with older variants like Venzlaus, Wanzel, Wenczusch,
Wenczlab and Wenczel.  I assume that the variants Winzel and Wintzel are
related to these.  Winzel, Witzel, Wenzel and Wetzel all occur as "German"
surnames (all of them common among German Jews as well).  I can well imagine
it possible that they are related and are of Germanicized Slavonic origin.

So, Carl, do you think I'm leading you somewhere or just astray?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

---------------------------------------------------

Hi, Ron!

You are so kind to offer so much information.  Your talent with language is
quite a gift!

My research shows that Saint Vicelin was born in Hameln, in what is now
Hesse.  I have questioned whether his birth name is Vicelin or acquired
during his life with the Church.  There are some books about Vicelin, but
all in German and hard to find, I would think.  Hard to acquire in the USA.

Most family name experts suggest that Witzel, as a last name, originates in
Thuringia.  Actually, the highest percentage of present day of Witzels live
on the Hesse-Thuringian border around the town of Fulda.  I have what I know
being developed on a website: http://www.geocities.com/cwitzjr . (Only
mentioned if you have the interest. )

>From the same Fulda area are 'Witzel von Hünfeld' and Georg Witzel.  My
thoughts were leaning toward Witzel being not at all associated with any old
German name roots and actually being of an OHG origin following a pattern
shown in many other names.  Luther referred to Georg as 'Wicel'.

Certainly any Slavic origin can not be ruled out.  I have one history that
strongly traces Wetzel into southern Germany and into Slavic areas.  Yet all
research states that it is of German origin and those who show migration
have it moving west to east, rather than east to west.  Nothing is final
yet.

But your experience with LS and OS languages seems to suggest no deeper
roots than OHG.  And perhaps your view helps to indicate that many name
historians are selling unreliable material.  Are we ruling out _widu_,
_witu_?  _wig_, _wich_?  It seems so.

Another form that has been found is Wizo,  suggested as an earlier form that
meant 'wise'.  And I am not sure why my computer translator says that 'Der
Weise' means 'of the manner'.  One researcher says 'of the way', as if a
phrase or saying. Wizo could have simply occurred in OHG without any earlier
ties??

There is a reference to Friedrich der Weise, of course meaning Friedrich
'the Wise'.  He too is a theologian.  There seems to be a great deal of
relationship to the church, but this may be because we only have Church
records available.  _weise_ = 'sage, philosopher' ??  _witz_ = 'witty'.  Too
easy?  I am wondering whether language is more likely to hold true to the
meaning as opposed to the pronunciation and/or spelling?  And therefore the
modern form tells the story?

Taking the Wizelin, Wicel, Witzel records that I have been able to find
(ruling out other variations for a second), it moves from north to south,
but I am limited to the internet.  It seems to appear always along the
Frankish-Saxon (Slavic?) border. It could also be that the name arrives with
the Wends in the north and moves south from there.  Yet, from my studies,
the Church suppressed Germanic writing and it could indeed be Latin.  I
think that you are suggesting that it could mean 'neighbor'?  This makes
sense as it is always near the activities of the Church (Latin) but finds a
German form?

I certainly will give all of these clues more thought.  It has become an
obsession. It is so refreshing to have someone take an interest in the
difficult questions.

Thanks so very much.

Regards,
Carl

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