LL-L "Names" 2004.12.05 (04) [E]

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.12.02 (06) [E]

Sandy and Ron were discussing whether gypsies like or prefer being called
that, or Roma/Sinti...

Ron, I think some confusion may have arisen here through translation. While
I don't know much about the acceptability of the English term "gypsy", I
assume that you where thinking of the German name "Zigeuner", which is
pretty much equivalent. The big difference, however, is that, in WWII, those
classified as "Zigeuner" were carted off to concentration camps and, in many
cases, murdered, just the same as Jews, homosexuals and political
dissidents. I think this may have a lot to do with the fact that continental
European gypsies want to be known as "Sinti and Roma" now, although I once
knew a very charming seven-year-old boy who proudly referred to himself as a
"Zigeuner" (assuming that my daughter and I were of the same group because
we spoke Dutch to each other, which to him must have sounded similar - so he
used an "insider" term in his family's dialect).

Since there is no such major, disastrous trauma connected to the term
"gypsy", maybe it is more acceptable in Britain than "Zigeuner" is in German
these days, so a direct comparison isn't really possible.

Just a theory...

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Names" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Names
>
> I will try to avoid going into an even more lengthy sermon here.  Let me
> just say that it is quite true that the "ugly" names are often used by the
> people themselves, but not by *all*, and there are always at least some
> who
> are genuinely offended by their use, especially when used by outsiders.

It's true that if someone objects to a term for themselves then you
shouldn't use it, and then again you might well add the caveat that the term
could still be used within the culture with the connotations being changed
in the different context.

But I have some objections to the way political correctness works itself out
in practice.

Sometimes a person sees an inappropriate reference to his culture as an
opportunity to launch a verbal assault on the perpetrator. When the
perpetrator asks why it's wrong to use that term, it's not treated as a
valid question, and this is sometimes because the "cultured" party hasn't
really thought it through himself.

Sometimes the "PC" term involves mindless acceptance and though the term
itself is harmless, the political correctness can be damaging to the
culture. For example, something like "Scotch", which results in a gut
reaction from many Scottish people these days, is also liable to produce a
reaction of disgust when reading literature in Scots, alienating them from
their own traditions. It would help if they understood the history of the
word, but unfortunately teachers in Scottish schools simply say it's wrong
to use the word, and if they give a reason at all they give the stupid
reason that it refers to a drink (in Scotland whisky is _not_ called
"Scotch" - it's called "whisky"!).

So I'm saying that while it would be wrong to use a term that the target
party objects to, it's also wrong for the target party to treat it as
unquestionable without giving an explanation. Some gaffs may be more
ignorant than others. For example, Black culture is reasonably well
represented in the media while Scots culture is usually misrepresented. So
it may be a bit worse to be ignorant about Black than about Scots, assuming
you have access to the media.

> I once referred to a woman (who could sign) as "deaf" and was reprimanded
> by
> her, saying that she had a little hearing, was just "extremely hard of
> hearing."  So there!  Someone else told me they were legally blind but not
> really blind.  What can you do?

Note that neither person is objecting to "blind" or "deaf" as terms, so it's
really a personal, not a PC issue.

I can't speak for the legally blind person, especially since you don't
actually say that they reprimanded you for it. In the case of the "EHoH"
person I think it's clear that this only applies on a personal level and you
just need to remember that she personally doesn't like to be referred to as
"deaf". She may be reacting in "PC" mode but this doesn't mean she's right
about it being an issue of political correctness.

It's also worth remembering that many disabilities are progressive and so a
person's preferred term for themselves may change over time. The woman in
question was perhaps in a grey area between having some useful hearing and
not.

I usually, when accuracy is important, refer to myself as "profoundly
deafened", otherwise just "deaf". Other people can call me what they like, I
won't hear them  :>

I should add that the question of whether deafness is a disability or not is
a political issue in itself. The most obvious manifestation of this is in
sport, where it's not really possible to include the deaf in the
paralympics, hence a separate deaf olympics.

>                                        When I talk about making
> audiovisual
> presentations accessible to as many people as possible, I also have in
> mind
> people with diminished hearing and eyesight, not just deaf and blind
> people.
> So, the terms "hearing-impaired" and "visually impaired" cast the net
> widely, include all of the above.

It's unfortunate that at the moment it's considered acceptable to refer to
another person as "impaired", and shows one of the flaws in the idea of
correct labelling - ie that some people have their own agenda. When these
are professional people it becomes much harder to convince others that the
term is wrong. Remember that for many people, their disability is part of
their genetic heritage and not only is a cure unlikely, but in the case of
deafness is often considered objectionable.

On DVD covers the subtitles are often referred to as "SDH" (Subtitles for
the Deaf and Hard of Hearing) or "HoH Subtitles". I'm sure most deaf people
would be able to figure out that HoH subtitles would also be useful to
themselves! But "English for the Hearing Impaired" is also used.

I think the answer is that you can cast the net too widely, and that lumping
people together when they're actually separate can cause more problems than
it solves, especially in this case where the more general term is inherently
offensive.

> I have heard a couple of Sorbs refer to their people as "Wends" (_Wenden_)
> in German but only in introductory talks for outsiders, followed by
> something like "but we are really called Sorbs."  Sorbs won't beat you up
> if
> you call them "Wends," would just consider you uneducated on this subject.

Well, at least you did explain why! But it's all right to be uneducated on
certain subjects as long as you're willing to learn, right?

Your mention of the term "bitch" really brings the idea of contextual labels
into sharp relief. When militant feminists use it it means one thing, when a
man uses it it means another. Some gay men use it quite differently again.
And when a Black person uses it it's considered completely inoffensive. We
know this because on the BBC TV programme "Have I Got News for You" someone
referred to the queen (God Bless 'Er) as "the bitch" and it was decided that
this was OK to send out on the air because he was Black!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: Carl Witzel <cwitzjr at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.12.02 (06) [E]


Ron wrote:

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Carl!

Careful with Latin names of North Europeans!  They are usually "faked up."
People with "learning" or those that wanted to appear learned used to
acquire Latin variants of their names because in medieval times Latin was
considered the only real or good language and Latin names were supposed to
give folks status.  A lot of approximation was involved, usually based on
the native name, with the aim of making it appear genuinely Latin.  So, if,
let's say, the guy's name was Witzelin  -- perhaps a diminuitive form of
Wi(n)tzel ~ We(n)tzel, either from Germanic Werner (which would make
Witzelin amount to a double diminutive form), or from Slavonic Ve(n)ceslav
(given that the usually German equivalents of this are Wenzel or Wetzel) --
then Latin Vicellinus would seem like a compromise choice: it seems
phonologically related, has a meaning (based on 'neighbor') and contains a
(Latin) diminutive as well.  My point is that Latin equivalents can be very
unreliable in researching native names.

Of course, the man was born in Hamlin, which is just about on the
westernmost edge of the older Germanic-Slavonic overlap region.  This may
make the possibility of him having been a Slav or of Slavonic descent
perhaps somewhat more remote, but you ought not exclude it altogether, given
also that he was given Slavonic areas as his missionary jurisdiction.  Bear
in mind that Slavonic communities of that region (and beyond) were rarely in
power positions and Slavs that were (such as aristocrats and clerics) tended
to be or become Germanicized (later followed by those they represented or
rules).  Slavonic origin in that region is not easily proven where important
figures tried to blend in with the power groups, took on Germanic versions
of their names and then Latinized these.

----

Hi, Ron!

Once again you are a gentleman and a scholar!

You are indeed opening the doors for exploration.  And I am so grateful to
hear the voice of experience.

Certainly, much of the literature talks about German names being influenced
by Latin as they were most often recorded by clerks of the Church or by
government that was under the sway of Rome.  It is interesting to note that
in the USA, the movie 'Luther' has just been released on DVD and Martin
defied Rome by translating the Bible into German so than the common man
could read scripture for himself.  European natives probably know more of
this history than we here in America.  We study George Washington and the
Indians!!!  So I am late to the party.

Anyway, my first approach to the topic had me believing that all is German
and that theologians, by default, would have Latin versions of their name.
And though Witzel as a last name is without a doubt German, (by whatever
means it came to its final form), the source of the personal name Wizelin is
is still in question.  And thus the conflict in thinking among many.  It has
taken your discussion to make that more clear to me.  Thanks.

The history does say too that Saint Vicelin, though raised by his Uncle
after the death of his parents, was born to an aristocratic family.  And as
you point out, Sorbs might not have been so well positioned in this area at
this time.  This is a time of great power for the Saxons however.  As we
have said that Hameln is in Lower Saxony, I doubt that there is a Franconian
in sight.  But then again, who knows?

Saint Bonifatius was born as Winfried in England and given the name at a
later date.  Can the same be true of Saint Vicelin?

Perhaps, in time, there can be a way of knowing the usage and meaning of
this name.  Yet, I suppose that many names were used without any real
concern for their meaning.  It is simply a subject that I hope to pursue,
and perhaps someday find an answer.  I am sure that I am in a trap enjoyed
by most linguists in their love for words.

As you have also pointed out, most name etymologists indicate the double
diminutive nature of the name Witzel.  And those that tie it to Wizo leave
no clue except that one hopes for a relationship found in old documents that
most of us will never see.

Your insight is so valuable.  I feel so fortunate to have this opportunity
to hear your gained experience.  Thanks again.  All thoughts always
welcomed.

Highest regards,
Carl

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Sandy, all your points are well taken, and the rest of your explanations
show that we are basically thinking alike.

Gabriele, I'd be the last wanting to come across as apologistic for what
happened to Roma and Sinti in Germany.  However, most of the names I
mentioned in various languages can be taken as offensive.  Please bear in
mind that Roma have been persecuted in most European countries, in some
cases really badly too.  Note that the Vallachian Roma of Romania were held
as Slaves (not just surfs but slaves) for centuries and gained a sort of
freedom only fairly recently.  And persecution contines as we speak,
especially in Eastern Europe.  The best they can do in the eyes of many is
entertain folks.  Play, Cigan! Dance, Ciganka!  It's not unlike what many
African Americans have been experiencing: "Entertain us, and then go back to
your ghetto!"

It does not help that traditional Roma culture comes with an apparently
Indian-derived caste and taboo system that excludes all outsiders, considers
contacts with outsiders (even with other "tribes") polluting.  I watched a
documentary about Roma in the Spokane area of Washington State (where there
is a Roma concentration).  The "king" (i.e., elder) had his house raided by
the police.  He had guarded the entire community's cash savings (because
they don't trust banks) and was suspected of drug trafficking because of all
the cash in the house.  Even though he was exhonorated he and his family are
now outcasts because the police sting has forever polluted them, which means
that they have been separated from their people, even if because of no fault
of their own.

Carl, I am happy to know that you are getting something out of our exchange.
It helps me too, because it makes me discover interesting things or makes me
at least think about them.

> And as you point out, Sorbs might not have been so well positioned in this
> area at this time.

Not in that region, Carl, but farther east, in the eastern parts of what are
now the states of Saxony and Brandenburg.  Their country, Lusatia used to be
much larger, but it never reached quite as far as Hamlin I believe.  I guess
that the Slavs of Lower Saxony where mostly Polabians.

> As we have said that Hameln is in Lower Saxony, I doubt that there is a
> Franconian in sight.  But then again, who knows?

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Franks did live there, even if only as
overseers cracking their whips.  Remember that not too long before Vicelin
the Frankish Emperor Karl ("the Great" - Charlemagne) had subdued and
integrated the Saxons under the pretext of Christianization, after a long
period of bitter battles and finally horrendous slaughter of Saxon elders
(4500 beheaded in one day).  I hardly think that the Saxons were left
without Frankish supervision, nor were the Slavs that had fallen into
Frankish hands.  The final year of Saxon rebellion was 782 when all of
Saxony was given Frankish institutions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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