LL-L "Names" 2004.12.16 (07) [E]

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From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.12.16 (05) [E]

Hi Carl, Ron et all.

> As you know, we had been discussing the name Vicelin (c1090) and Wizelin
> (c950).

Following the discussion Dutch _wezel_ (weasel) always comes up in my mind.
This animal is often confused with a 'hermelijn'  (ermine) with the -elin
affix Ron mentioned. In my (Limb)dialect they 're called _wesselke_ and
_fiske_  (with the -ke diminuative). In winter those 'hermelijnen/fiskes'
are white and their fur is used in the famous bisshop coat.  Maybe Vicelin
was the obvious nickname, not being understood as such when it became
Latinised. Instead of catching rats in Hamelen (!) like his coat suggested
he trapped the youth who where less bound by religious tradition. Their
could  be some truth in the story anyway since not even that long ago mice
and rats were -uitgelezen- (read out) from the fields by priests. (I tried
in my garage once, and it seems to work. You only have to ask politely).

Only a (pleasant) thought,

Groeten,

Jo Thys

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hey, Jo!

> Following the discussion Dutch _wezel_ (weasel) always comes up
> in my mind.

Hmmm ... Don't be fooled by spelling!  When German speakers write <z> they
really mean /ts/, not /z/.  (They can't help it.)

(And in American English at least it's naughty to call someone a weasel.
;-)  )

> Only a (pleasant) thought,

Pleasant thoughts of pleasant guys.  Quite some little etymology you've
cooked up there.  ;-D

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Carl Witzel <cwitzjr at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.12.16 (05) [E]


Ron wrote:

Hi, Carl!

The German verb _witzeln_ can also mean something like 'to quip' or 'to
wisecrack'.  In fact, I would say those are the most likely modern meanings.
The verb goes back to the noun _Witz_ 'joke', which goes back to Old German
_wizzi_ and is related to Old Saxon, Old Frisian and Old English _wit_ (also
Old English _gewit_), which pretty much have the meanings of Modern English
"wit."  In German, this older meaning is somewhat preserved in the adjective
_gewitzt_ 'clever', 'cunning', 'witty' (as opposed to _witzig_ 'funny').

The _-elin-_ in the name seems like a diminutive in Germanic (> Modern
German _-(e)lein_), also like a diminutive in Latin (hence my *_vicellinus_
'neighbor' dim.).

It's all still quite a mystery to me, just as to yourself.  I am fairly
confident that the name is not Lowlandic (on account of _tz_) but either
German (Witzel ~ Wetzel ~ Wissel ~ Wessel, which seems to be fairly
widespread especially among but apparently not exclusive to Jewish Germans)
or Slavonic (with _-in_ as a noun-from-noun derivative, as in _brlo_ 'swamp'
+ _-in_ = _brlin_ 'swampy place' = Berlin).  In regard to the latter, what
comes to mind are associations with Czech _včelín_ 'apiary', 'beehive', 'bee
house' from _včela_ 'bee' (> _včelař_ 'bee-keeper', 'apiarist').

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the nice summary of our discussions.  I will research, if at all
possible, your instinctive feel for a Slavonic origin.  I do not know of any
Jewish influence in the family, but who knows?

Thanks so much for the information on the suffix _-elin-_.  I'm guessing
that it works a bit like an ('), just replacing missing syllables.

And it seems that those who tie Vicelin to _der Weise_ are  making
assumptions that are likely not true.  Instead, Wizelin is a diminutive of a
more formal name and the similarity to _der witz_ or _der Weise_ is only a
consequence of sound shifts, and the words are otherwise are not related?

Like any researcher, I was hoping for the key to the unknown.  Your
explanation now echoes that of the text 'Duden Familiannamen'.  It seems
that the double diminutive quality of the name offers a limited number of
clues.

Your kindness is unmatched.

Regards
Carl

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