LL-L "Language policies" 2004.12.17 (01) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Hi Críostóir and all

You wrote, Críostóir:
"European expenditure is European expenditure. Money saved from translation
will not be reinvested into basic education in Ireland or any other member
state - it will simply be recycled within the EU structures. "

Ok , I have to concede. You do of course make an excellent point here. It
just seems a shame that we Europeans are willing to make (what I see as)
these grand token gestures without sorting out the real language issues
within our countries.

I'd written earlier:
"...be sensible about how money can be best spent to further the Irish
language cause."

And you replied:
"Would you write that about the English, French or German language "causes"?

I don't know. As I've said before, I always feel jealous of people who have
a minority language as
their mother tongue. Having English I can't answer your question. I would
very probably feel differently if English was the language in question.
Although I think I would still feel annoyed that MEPs are willing to carry
through these motions whilst largely ignoring the real language problems
within the EU. The individual countries seem to be incompetent in arranging
support and recognition for their minority languages and there do seem to
have been some good things to have come from Europe as regards recognition
of such. I still feel a concentration on these issues is more important than
arguing about whether there should be interpreters available or not. But I'm
being perhaps a bit too idealistic...

So cheers to you Críostóir :)

Gary

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language policies

Hi, Críostóir and Gary!

Please believe me that I don't mean it to come across as patronizing when I
give praise you for having just demonstrated exemplary List conduct.  It is
easy to get frustrated and even angry when discussing contentious issues of
this sort, and the two of you have shown how to do this with ingenuousness
yet with restraint, affability and amity.  Conceding is not everyone's
strength and idea of fun, and you, Gary, have demonstrated how to do so with
graciousness and magnanimity, plus a sense of humor. Kudos!

Gary, you are probably aware of this, but other List members may not know
that after Norman occupation of Britain English had become something of a
minority language there, being endangered at least in the social,
administrative and educational elites, and many people living in England
were of part Norman descent or were married-in Normans themselves (as you
can still tell by the many French-derived British surnames), steadfastly
using Norman French.  Under Norman occupation, anyone who wanted to be
someone had switched to (Norman) French, even if they were not of Norman
descent.  The proposal to revive and reenvigorate English and to reinstitute
it as the official language even at court no doubt had many opponents at the
time.  After all, English had largely retreated to the "common" segments of
society.  Reinstating it within the higher echelon took a lot of effort and
probably money, and even then you could have argued that it was in large
part done for symbolic, nationalistic reasons.  However, had it not
happened, many of us would now be using French rather than English.

I am not predicting that the same will happen in the case of Irish, the
ancestral language of most Irish people.  It is not out of the question that
it will, but this would require more than lipservice.  Though it is now a
minority language despite being the official language of Ireland, excluding
it from offical, high-profile functions would undermine its status and
survival chances even further.

Thanks again, guys!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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