LL-L "History" 2004.02.16 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 16.FEB.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Songs

Folks,

For some reason the following message from Roger was not received till he
sent it again today.

Reinhard/Ron

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2004.02.15 (04) [D/E/French]

> From: Frank Verhoft <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
> Subject: Language varieties
> Roger:
> <<<The French word "thiois" for "Diets" is hard to find in French
> dictionaries.<<<
> Great! Never ever came across this one. Do you have more information on
the
> how's and when's. A quick search in my Old French dictionary resulted in
> nothing.

In: François-Xavier Nève, Binamée Liège! Dictionnaire des Gens, des Choses
et des Mots qui font le bonheur des Liégeois, 2000, Brussels, Editions Luc
Pire, ISBN 2-930240-77-6, 222 pp.
p. 297

-- quote:
THIOIS
Flamand, dans l'ancien pays de Liège, lequel comptait plus de Bonnes Villes
thioises que wallonnes.
[comment: see my own web page:
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/~tpm09245/terr/lg/bovi.htm]
Ä Liège même, les Flamands étaient nombreux; beaucoup habitaient
SainteWalburge. Les Thiois apprenaient vite le wallon et le français; pas
mal de Liégeois apprenaient le flamand (voir Wache).
Devant le palais du prince-évêque et a l'hótel de Ville, toute proclamation
publique était trilingue : latine, " française" (sans doute fort mêlée de
wallon) et thioise.
Dès le 14e siècle, les soldats flamands obtiennent d'étre commandés en
thiois, et les wallons en français. Si la notion de langue nationale ou
officielle n'existait guère - jusqu'au 18e siècle, le latin reste la grande
langue écrite de la principauté épiscopale - la réalité langagière était
bien le bilinguisme d'État, et de fait (voir Diglossie).
-- end quote

You see "thiois" and "flamand" are virtually synonyms. The "thiois"-speaking
area of the principality of Liège, the old county of Loon, coincides
virtually with the actual province of Belgian Limburg.
Nowadays we would say that these people then spoke what we nowadays call
"Limburgish".

At that time though Limburg was located elsewhere. It was a bilingual
(Limburgish-Ripuarish and East-Walloon dialects) county at the East of the
province of Liège (South West of Aachen). Capital at the time:
"Limbourg-sur-Vesdre".
(cf. web:
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/~tpm09245/terr/limbduc/duch1.htm)

Regards,

Roger

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: History

Frank Verhoft wrote:
Hi all
I'm highly intrigued by a book called "dictionnaire français-flamand"
published in 1587, apparently in Amsterdam: the word "flamand" in
combination with the location and the date. In short: why the word "flamand"
then and there??
Hello Frank and Lowlanders,
The city of Antwerp, being the focal sphere for Zeeland, and the Flemish and
Brabantia areas fell to the Spanish in 1585. Antwerp till then was a major
international trade center. There was an influx of Flemish traders fleeing
the Spanish occupation and moving north to Amsterdam. Perhaps the dictionary
was so named as a defiant statement against the Habsburg empire as the
southerners now exiled in Amsterdam felt their Flemish culture would be
destroyed. Only an idea!!!
Tot Ziens
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

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