LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.26 (03) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 26.FEB.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Frank Verhoft <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
Subject: Etymology

Hi Ron, all

Firs of all, thanks for the comments and explanations so far!
I did indeed neglect to point out explicitely which language i was talking
about. It is the Surinam variety of Dutch -- otherwise i wouldn't dare to
post this query on the LL-list ;-)) -- and the example "ganja" i found in
J. van Donselaar's Woordenboek van het Surinaams-Nederlands.

I added the description of the publication:
"De variatie van de Nederlandse taal die zich in Suriname heeft ontwikkeld
is voor Nederlandssprekenden niet altijd geheel te begrijpen. Dit
woordenboek bevat juist die woorden in het Surinaams-Nederlands die van het
Algemeen Nederlands afwijken. Opgenomen zijn ruim 6600 woorden waarvan
sommige in het Nederlands onbekend zijn en andere een specifieke betekenis
of gebruikssfeer hebben. Deze onbekende woorden hebben in veel gevallen
betrekking op zaken die wel in Suriname en niet in Nederland voorkomen.
Bij alle woorden worden voorbeeldzinnen gegeven, vaak afkomstig uit
literaire of journalistieke bronnen. Achter in het woordenboek is een
contraregister opgenomen waarin de gebruiker vanuit het Algemeen Nederlands
het Surinaams-Nederlandse woord kan opzoeken."

I have no clue about the pronunciation of "ganja" in Surinam Dutch. The
author didn't specify the (date of the) loan word: he simply called it an
example of a Hindi word in Surinam Dutch.

<<<If so, I wonder if it really entered Sranan, Aukan, Samaraccan or a
local Dutch variety directly from Hindi, or if it arrived via English,
perhaps specifically from Jamaican Rasta Patois: _ganja_ 'marihuana',
'herb'.<<<

That's indeed the core of my question.

Best regards and hartelijk dank,

Frank

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for clarifying that, Frank.

I think there is a very common tendency toward simplification in
etymological notes: leading readers to believe that a language got a loan
from a certain other language when there is proof or at least a distinct
possibility that the word was borrowed via one or more other languages.
What one ought to say in order to be on the safe side would be something
like "goes back to ..." to indicate what is known to be the original source.
This sort of simplification can be found a lot in Turkic etymology, where
words are marked as Arabic loans when in reality they are loans from Iranian
(usually Tajik, Farsi, Dari), perhaps even borrowed via another Turkic
language, although the original source is Arabic.  I am not saying that this
necessarily applies in the case of Surinam Dutch _ganja_, just that it
should be considered a possibility unless we are convinced otherwise.

> It is the Surinam variety of Dutch -- otherwise i wouldn't dare to
> post this query on the LL-list ;-))

Why not?  Of course you could, since we include pidgins and creoles with
Lowlands bases or components.  As for Surinam, the languages Sranan, Aukan,
Aluku, Paramaccan, Ndyuka and Kwinti as well as Ndyuka-Trio Pidgin are
English-based and contain Dutch elements (among others, such as Portuguese),
and Guyanese Creole (which is also used in Surinam) is English-based too.
In fact, I would certainly welcome more information and discussions about
creoles and pidgins with Lowlands connections.  There are lots of them.
Berbice Creole (Guyana), U.S. Virgin Islands Creole Dutch, Petjoh
(Indonesia, Netherlands), and Skepi (Guayana) are examples of Dutch-based
creoles.  Afrikaans-based ones are Oorlams and Tsotsitaal.  And
English-based ones are too numerous to mention here.

Rick Denkers wrote under "Orthography":

> And not much later dutch words were used in the Russian Language. One of
the
> prime examples of that is the russian word for hairdresser( or better
> barber) (in latin, phonetic): parjiekmacherskaja, or in dutch...
> pruikenmaker, wigmaker.

While I certainly do not doubt the fact that many Dutch loans entered
Russian at that time (as did some Lowlands Saxon ones), I doubt that Russian
парикмахерская _parikmaxerskaja_ 'barbershop' comes from Dutch.  I am
inclined to think that it comes from German (cf. Modern Standard German
_Perückenmacher_ 'wigmaker').  Wouldn't that make more sense phonologically?
Had it come from Dutch, I would expect something like *праикенмакерская
*_prajkenmakerskaja_ or *проикенмакерская *_projkenmakerskaja_.  Had it come
from Lowlands Saxon (Low German) I would expect something like
*п(е)рюкенмакерская *_p(e)rjukenmakerskaja_ (< _p(e)rüykenmaker_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================