LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.16 (03) [A/E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 16.JAN.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at simpross.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.01.15 (01) [A/E]

Môre Laaglanders!
Liza du Plooy skryf:
>>In Afrikaans a necktie is a "das" although I know that the archaic
word is "kravat".
Ouer manne dra nog krawatte benewens dasse. 'n Das is dunnerig, word
gevou en hang bo-oor jou hemp. 'n Krawat is breed en lapperig en word
agter jou 'n hempskraag ingedruk.
>>I unfortunately have no idea how we say Croatia - although I'd guess
"Kroatië". For Serbia we say Serbië.
In Afrikaans is dit Kroasië en Serbië.
Lekker om nog 'n Afrikaanse stem te hoor, Liza!
Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

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From: Niels Winther  <niels.winther at lycos.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

From: niels winther <niels.winther at lycos.nl>
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology"

Ron wrote:
> I have long wondered what the origin of Afrikaans and Dutch _das_ for
'necktie' might be.

It is interesting to note that a now obsolete Danish word for 'necktie',
'scarf' was _daskeklud_,
one of the meanings of _daske_ (verb) is to 'flap'  and that in some Jutish
dialects a _dask_ is the free end of a rope or a flap of clothes.
One would expect something like _daschen_, _dassen_ and _dasch_, _dass_ in
LS?

regards
Niels

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for the clarifications and additions above, Elsie and Niels!

It's interesting to know that in Afrikaans there (still) is a difference
between a _das_ and a _krawat_.

Niels:

> It is interesting to note that a now obsolete Danish word for 'necktie',
> 'scarf' was _daskeklud_, one of the meanings of _daske_ (verb) is to
> 'flap'  and that in some Jutish dialects a _dask_ is the free end of a
> rope or a flap of clothes.

Interesting indeed!  Without the explanation I would have jumped to the
conclusion that _daskeklud_ originally meant "bag/pocket cloth," given that
I assume that cloths men used to tie around their necks (i.e., the ancestors
of today's ties) doubled as or evolved from handkerchiefs, much like the
"bandana" was and is used among cowboys and their counterparts in the
Americas.


> One would expect something like _daschen_, _dassen_ and _dasch_, _dass_ in
LS?


I am not aware of the existence of such words.

But I did find a cognate of German _Tasche_ 'bag' in Old Saxon: _dasga_
'bag'.  It is believed to go back to Indo-European *_d(h)əskā_ (*_d_h at skâ)
*'bag' < *_d(h)əs-_ (*_d_h at s-_) *'to put'.

Note also the Norwegian explanations of _daske_
(http://www.dokpro.uio.no/ordboksoek.html):

Bokmål:
*daske* v1 (trol lydord) slå lett, særlig med noe flatt _d- til en med
hånden _.

Nynorsk:
I *daske* v1 (truleg lydord) slå (lett), særleg med noko flatt slik at det
klaskar _d- til ein med handa*_
II *daske* v1 (av *_dase_; innv frå _I daske_) gå tungt; daffe .

So this goes pretty much with what you said about the Danish words:
something floppy, dangling.  I still wonder if it has anything to do with
words for "bag," originally a dangling pouch.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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