LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.04 (03) [A/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.03 (01) [E]

luc vanbrabant wrote:
 >
> I think in English, one speaks of an "appel", and spells it as "apple".
> In my Flemish, it is just the opposite;
> I say "apple" and spell it "appel". So this happens with a great
> variety of words like
> (Flemish/Dutch): beutre/Boter , veugle/vogel , regle/regel ,
> wizre/wijzer , Risle/Rijsel , kopple/koppel ,
> voadre/vader , wezne/wezen ,... (but not in plural forms : veugels,
> regels, wizers, koppels, voaders,  wezens...).
> Is this a shift that has happened elswhere in the Lowland languages ?
> And what is the oldest form here?
>
When reading veugle/vogel I thought of the oldest known piece of Dutch
text "hebben alle vogala". Perhaps in Flanders they went from vogala to
vogla/vogle or something similar? Or is it instead an indication that
the oldest known form was "vogal" or "vogel", with the plural being
"vogala"?

Or perhaps it's just French influence...

Henry

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From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] <marco at evenhuiscommunicatie.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.03 (01) [E]

Luc wrote:

> Just looked at the spelling of the word "apple" in  your list.
> I think in English, one speaks of an "appel", and spells it as "apple".
> In my Flemish, it is just the opposite;
> I say "apple" and spell it "appel". So this happens with a great
> variety of words like
> (Flemish/Dutch): beutre/Boter , veugle/vogel , regle/regel ,
> wizre/wijzer , Risle/Rijsel , kopple/koppel ,
> voadre/vader , wezne/wezen ,... (but not in plural forms : veugels,
> regels, wizers, koppels, voaders,  wezens...).
> Is this a shift that has happened elswhere in the Lowland languages ?
> And what is the oldest form here?

It is not a shift, it's just the old suffix -e that medieval Dutch also knew
and that survived in a number of dialects, including West-Flemish and
Zeelandic. I think the clue here is that there is an extra e (schwa) that
has become completely silent in most West-Flemish dialects. So your examples
should in fact be spelled appele, beutere, veugele, Riesele, vaodere, etc.,
but in reality do sound the way you described (apple, veugle, etc.). Compare
this to the suffix -e in words like straote, schuure, katte, etc. So it's
just stem+e and a 'forgotten' schwa in the stem... This also explains the
plural forms, which are just stem+s.

regards,

Marco

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From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.03 (01) [E]

Luc wrote:

Just looked at the spelling of the word "apple" in your list.
I think in English, one speaks of an "appel", and spells it as "apple".
In my Flemish, it is just the opposite;
I say "apple" and spell it "appel". So this happens with a great
variety of words like
(Flemish/Dutch): beutre/Boter , veugle/vogel , regle/regel ,
wizre/wijzer , Risle/Rijsel , kopple/koppel ,
voadre/vader , wezne/wezen ,...

This is why I love my language! In Afrikaans sê mens appel en jy spel dit
appel. Ek dink dit is 'n fantastiese en maklike taal. Hoera Afrikaans!

Liza du Plooy

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Haai, Liza!

In Nedersassies spel 'n mens ook "appel" (of "Appel") en sê "appel".  Maar
in die meeste tongvalle sê 'n mens die "-el" sonder 'n klinker; dis 'n
lettergrepig "l", asof "apl" gespel.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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