LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Lexicon [E/N]

Dear all,

Interested in Ron's point that 'mountain' is a Romance
loan. In Northumbrian it becomes 'moontin', which
suggests a clear example of 'northumbrianisation'.
I've also noticed that hill gets used a lot instead of
mountain in Northumberland, e.g. the Cheviot Hills, an
area I suppose that could be classed as mountainous.

cheors,

Glenn Simpson

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.04 (04) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
> I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
> German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":
>
<snip/>
>
> Now, in Lowlands Saxon you can use _bült_ <Bült> [bY.lt] or _knül_ <Knüll>
> [knY.l] for 'hill', but I feel that these rather denote very small hills,
> "glorified bumps," "knolls" in fact.  The normal word for both "hill" and
> "mountain" is _barg_.
>
I can confirm it's the same in Twente Low Saxon, and I think in most
Saxon varieties on the Dutch side of the border. We also use "beld" for
hill, but it's used in more or less the same way as "bült".

grooten,
Henry

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From: Frédéric Baert <baert_frederic at CARAMAIL.COM>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.04 (04) [E]

Hi
As far as I know, french west flemish only know the word "berg" (with its
typical "e" pronunced much more like a "a" than like a "e") for
hill/mountain.
We use it to speak about our "mounts":
1: french flemish
2: french
3: english

1: Katsberg 2: mont des Cats 3: mount of the cats (an old tribe who has
lived there)
1: zwartenberg 2: mont noir 3: black mount
1: groenenberg of sintwinoksberg 2: mont vert ou mont Saint Winoc 3 the
green mount or mount of Saint Winoc (actual city of Bergues or Bergues
Saint Winoc)
1: kasselberg 2: mont Cassel 3 Cassel mount : the highest top of the whole
flanders with 176m.
and also in Belgium
1: Ro'enberg 2: mont rouge 3: red mount
1: Kemmelberg 2: mont kemmel 3: kemmel mount

As you said Ron, I think that, at least flemings did not need to have a
word for mountain since the highest tops are not more than 170m. In our
case, it's "berg" that have survived and we do not know a word related to
english "hill" any more.

Best regards
Frédéric Baert

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks for the feed back, folks!

Here is my question again, because for some reason a whole bunch of people
have been joining us today, and I don't want them to be "deprived" of the
beginning of this thread.  ;-)  It will be followed by a postscript.

> Here's another question about lexical inventory in Lowlands languages.
>
> I am more concerned about actual, native, original, normal usage than
about
> availability of lesser-used expressions and neologisms.
>
> I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
> German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":
>
> Lowlands Saxon: _barg_ <Barg> [ba:x]
> Scots: _hill_ ~ _hull_
>
> German and English, on the other hand, clearly distinguish between _Hügel_
> and _Berg_ and between "hill" and "mountain" respectively.
>
> Yiddish may represent an intermediate type, using _barg_ בארג (in some
> dialects _berg_ בערג) for 'mountain' and its diminutive form _bergl_ בערגל
> for 'hill'.
>
> Now, in Lowlands Saxon you can use _bült_ <Bült> [bY.lt] or _knül_ <Knüll>
> [knY.l] for 'hill', but I feel that these rather denote very small hills,
> "glorified bumps," "knolls" in fact.  The normal word for both "hill" and
> "mountain" is _barg_.
>
> Similarly, you have available the Romance-derived word _muntain_ for
> 'mountain' in Scots, besides Celtic-derived _ben_ for very tall peaks of
the
> Scottish highlands.  But from my reading I take it that in normal Scots
> _hill_ ~ _hull_ applies to 'mountain' as well.
>
> Note also that in English "hill" is of native origin while "mountain" is a
> Romance loan.
>
> I believe that the numerous Frisian varieties of the Netherlands and
Germany
> have similar lack of distinction.
>
> I keep wondering if this apparent (original?) lack of distinction is
because
> in the Lowlands you don't get anything that is taller than what we call a
> "hill."  Real "mountains" are outside the original language region.
> Newcomers to Hamburg, Germany, find it rather strange to find a range of
> hills south of the southern branch of River Elbe referred to as _Harborger
> Bargen_ (LS) and _Harburger Berge_ (G).  To people of the area they seem
> like mountains (at least in the olden days), and they even try to ski on
> them if there is snow in the winter.  The closest real mountains are the
> Harz Mountains, that lie on the southern edge of the language area.
>
> I wonder if there are similar situations in other Lowlands language
> varieties, especially in the varieties of the Netherlands, Belgium and
> Northern France.  I am less interested in reference to "real" ("exotic")
> mountains outside that area.  I also wonder if those varieties "act"
> differently from Afrikaans, given that Afrikaans-speaking areas (i.e.,
> Southern Africa) do indeed have both hills (_heuwels_, _bulte_, _koppies_,
> _rantjies_) and mountains (_berge_, _koppe_), besides knolls (_bulties_,
> _heuwelties_).

There's also the placename (nowadays a part of Hamburg, I believe) LS
_Bargdörp_ ['ba:xdœ.3p], German _Bergedorf_, literally "mountain village," a
place that has hills, at best.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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