LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]

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From: Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]

Mark said:

"I believe you are wrong, & that it is fundamental to your old language. It,
or the cognate 'waan' is still a necessary tool in Afrikaans."

It depends how old the language is.  It would be conceivable for a person to
have a fairly good knowledge of modern Scots without ever having encountered
wan-, except perhaps in wanchancie (I hope I don't offend anyone with my low
standards).  I always assumed that most wan- words started out as nouns from
which adjectives were sometimes derived whereas the un- words were mainly
negations of adjectives.  Perhaps I'm being influenced by my knowledge of
German here, in which case A'll awa dree ma wanweird.  Ill- or mis- would be
much more indispensible elements in Scots.

According to the DSL at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/, wan- ceased to be
productive in word formation except in Scots and Northern English after the
Middle English period, and I suspect that Scots simply followed suit after a
delay, with it falling together with un- in many cases.

The number of Afrikaans and German words using the element could be to do
with their lack of direct Latinate loans (as opposed to calques) and
creation of abstract concepts using native elements, which brings me back to
my original point.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if someone such as
Hately Waddell had coined a few words with wan-, but if one represents Scots
as the hybrid Latinised Germanic language that it is rather than reforms it
so that it's a purely Germanic one, there's no need for the like.

--
All the best,

Gavin

Gavin Falconer

"Tharfor wordly happe es ay in dout
Whilles dam fortune turnes hir whele about."

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]

Re: on end

I had always thought it mean something along the lines of "end to end."  For
example, "He reads mystery novels for hours on end."  I'm visualizing
several hours lined up end "on end" (one after the other) with the meaning
of "consecutively."

Mark Brooks

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]

>From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]
>
>Dear David
>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>
>>I've found in 'The Dream of the Rood'
>>'þæt wæs géara iú   - ic þæt gýta geman
>>þæt wæs áhéawan  holtes on ende'
>>
>>where 'on ende' is glossed as 'from the edge' .
>
>Well, I don't altogether agree with that gloss
>Going strictly with Afrikaans I would read it as 'oneindig = unending or
>endlessly, without end'
>I read the 'on' as meaning 'un' or without.
>
>Yrs Sincerely,
>Mark
>
>----------
>
Mark,

My English is pretty basic but I've added a few previous lines and tried
a rough translation

...........................   Hælendes tréow,
........................   Saviour's tree (cross)
oþ þæt ic gehýrde   þæt hit hléoðrode     until I heard        that it spoke
ongan þá word sprecan   wudu  sélesta   began then words to speak:
best of woods
þæt wæs géara iú - ic þæt gýta geman     that was years ago - I still
remember that-
þæt ic wæs áhéawan holtes on ende'       that I was hewn down  from the
forest's edge

However don't take my word for it. I got the gloss for 'on ende' from
Mitchell and Robinson's A Guide to Old English.

And here's an interlinear translation

http://www.flsouthern.edu/eng/abruce/rood/ROODTEXT/ALL%7E1.HTM

see lines 25 to 29

David Barrow

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Thanks a lot for your interesting points above, David and Luc!
>
>David, under "Lexicon" you wrote today:
>
>>For me because of  my surname all this talk about mountain terms is very
>>interesting :-)
>>
>>Even if it has been semantically demoted
>
>Perhaps it consoles you that Gothic _bairgz_, Old Norse _berg_ ~ _bjarg_,
>English (_beorƽ_ >) "barrow" (~ "bargh" ~ "barf"), W. Frisian (/berg/)
>_berch_, Lowlands Saxon (_berg_ >) _barg_, Low Franconian _berg_, German
>_Berg_, etc. for 'mountain' and 'hill' raises fascinating etymological
>questions, taking us all over the Indo-European map.  Here just a snippet
or
>two.
>
>These tend to be seen as linked with Celtic: Old Irish _brigh_ 'mountain'
>(and I wonder about Scottish Gaelic _brìg_ 'heap', 'pile', even though
>Alexander McBain links it with English "brick").
>
>Furthermore, there seem to be links with Slavonic; e.g., Old Slavonic
>_brĕgŭ_ 'height', 'mountain' (i.e., "elevated place"), also Russian _bereg_
>берег, Ukrainian _bereg_ берег, Czech _břeh_, Polish _brzeg_, Bulgarian
>_brjag_ бряг, etc., 'bank', 'shore' (i.e., "rising/raised ground").
>
>Going even farther afield, there is the reconstructed (Indo-)Aryan word
>*_bhergh_ 'height'.  Sanskrit _br'hant_ 'high' tends to be shown as
>connected with it and "barrow" etc.  I am tempted to go as far as linking
it
>with the Sanskrit root _bhar-_ 'to bear', 'to lift', 'to raise', 'to
carry',
>and the extension _bharat_ 'bearing', 'carrying', 'lifting', 'that which
>bears' > 'India', probably also with Germanic *_ber-_ > English (_beran_ >)
>"to bear," Gothic _bairan_, and Indo-Iranian: Persian (Farsi) _bordan_
بردن,
>(< /bur-/), etc., all in the sense of 'to bear', and numerous derivatives
>denoting 'to bear/carry/behave oneself', 'to give birth' and 'to be born'.
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron
>
Ron

'bear' = carry from OE 'beran' from IE  *_bher ; 'barrow' = mountain
from IE *_bhergh. Some common earlier root linking them  under the theme
of 'elevation'? Which would be interesting as there is another 'barrow'
(as in wheelbarrow) from OE *bearwe from OE 'beran' from  IE *_bher. You
could say things have come full circle. :-)

David Barrow

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

A point I should have included in my message below about 'on end'
Neither of the two dictionaries where I found the expression has it as
meaning 'without end'  One says 'consecutively' and the other
continuously without pause
(between one day/year/whatever and the next). Neither of these
definitions necessarily implies 'non-stop'

'Susan used to disappear for days on end. Nobody knew where she went'

The idea of 'without end' is perhaps a more recent semantic development

David Barrow

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