LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (01) [E]

Hi Everybody,

 Subject: LL-L "Name the language"

> Pat Reynolds asked about the language that Tolkien used.
> If you ask me, the guy used good ole' Bloemfontein Afrikaans
> and merely changed the spelling to look exotically Elvish.
>
> > twe tusend Johr
>
> Is merely 'twee duisend jaar' and pronounced [twe: d at is@nt j:ar]

>If it wasn't for the extraordinary breadth of Tolkien's Learning, I would
go straight for Elsie Zinsser's
interpretation. He couldn't use the Afrikaans orthography, since that would
lead the English reader to pronounce it  'twi: daiz at nde djo:h' - Eina!

Otherwise, I wouldn't challange the thesis that he used these exact words
because he read those exact words (& studied them) in Grimm. This was his
way.

This phrase (if he didn't use it again elsewhere) is quoted from his essay
'Tree & Leaf' in a paragraph discussing the impact of the 'Old' in
fairytales, & expanding on the "--- beauty & horror of 'The Juniper Tree
(Von dem Machandelbloom) ---" & it's impact on him. It is abundently clear
that this tale is not couched in Standard German.

By the way: His Elvish 'Middle Earth' was not the only fields of his
wandering. He most likely never used the 'Elvish' or 'Middle Earth' mode
outside of those writings dedicated to them; not even 'Smith of Wootton
Major'.

Yrs,
Mark

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Name the language

Mark,

You wrote above:

> This phrase (if he didn't use it again elsewhere) is quoted from his essay
> 'Tree & Leaf' in a paragraph discussing the impact of the 'Old' in
> fairytales, & expanding on the "--- beauty & horror of 'The Juniper Tree
> (Von dem Machandelbloom) ---" & it's impact on him. It is abundently clear
> that this tale is not couched in Standard German.

Far be it from me to nitpick, especially in the case of you gender-deprived,
albeit learned Afrikaans-speaking lot, but that would be _Von de
Machandelbloom_ (my spelling _Von dey machandel-bloum_) "(About) The Juniper
Flower/Blossom" (feminine), rather than the original _Von dem Machandelboom_
(my spelling _Von dem machandel-boum_) "(About) The Juniper Tree"
(masculine).

What a difference a slip of the key can make!

Poking fun aside, the objective masculine form _dem_ is no longer used in
the majority of today's dialects.  It's now _den_, _d'n_ or just _'n_ (the
latter directly attached to the preceding word, _von'n_ ~ _vun'n_ ~ _van'n_,
because _von 'n_ would be "of/from a").  I write it _d'n_ to distinguish it
from indefinite (_eyn_ >) _'n_ [n], because initial /d/ regularly
assimilated to a preceding consonant, as also in many Afrikaans dialects;
e.g., _van die_ -> _vannie_, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) (fem.) _von dey_ ->
_vonney_ ['fOnEI] ~ _vonne_ ['fOne], (neut.) _von dat_ -> _vonnat_ ['fOnat]
~ _von't_ [fO.nt], (masc.) _von den_ -> _vonnen_ -> _von'n_ [fO.n:].

Consequently, _machandel_ 'juniper' is pronounced _machannel_ (or _machanl_)
in most dialects of today, and in my spelling it's all right to write it
_machannel_.

Elsie wrote:

> If you ask me, the guy used good ole' Bloemfontein Afrikaans
> and merely changed the spelling to look exotically Elvish.

Yep!  Goes to show you just how similar some of those Lowlands varieties can
be to each other, especially if you write them more alike.  {Hint, hint,
blink, blink ...}

A LS speaker has no problem understanding Afrikaans _twee duisend jaar_,
certainly not in writing.

Greutn oen koemplmentn,
Reinhard/Ron

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