LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (03) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 23.JUL.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Bouchonlemaitre at aol.com <Bouchonlemaitre at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (12) [E]

Beste Gustaaf,
in het westvlaams zegt men niet "stroop" maar enkel "siroop",wat dichter
staat bij het oorspronkelijke "sirupus" (middeleeuws latijn afkomstig van
het arabisch "charab").
Hoe het komt dat men in het noorden begonnen is met stroop te zeggen, zou ik
ook wel eens willen weten.
Groetjes aan allen,
stephan lemaitre

Dear Gustaaf,
in west flemish, we don't say "stroop" but only "siroop",what is closer to
the original "sirupus" (midieval latin from the arab "charab").
I would like to know too how it comes in the north one began to say stroop.
greetings to all,
stephan lemaitre.

----------

From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (12) [E]

Hello,

> "Slavonic for 'venom': Russian яд _jad_, Polish _jad_, Czech _jed_.
> Related or coincidental?"
>
> I suppose it does not necessarily preclude the possibility of a relation,
> but is it not possible (likely?) that these Slavonic words derive from a
> root meaning 'to eat'? (Old Bulgarian _jadu_ (with breve on the _u_) 'ate'
> <*_e:d-_

Just an uninformed guess but the relation could be parallel to the relation
between German "essen" and "ätzen", i.e. an old causative formation or
something related...

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Ron, and fellow Lowlanders:

Ron said:

"But, 'to eat' vs 'venom':Russian: есть jest' vs яд jad
Polish: jeść vs jad Czech: jæshy;sti vs jed

Sure, they could be related (and, after all, there's really just a
handful of Indo-European roots when it comes down to it), but I'm not
convinced at this point."

I spent all afternoon searching in vain for my copy of Vasmer's
_Etimologicheskiy Slovar' Russkogo Yazyka_ (Etymological Sictionary of the
Russian Language), but I finally found it on the net. Interstingly enough,
he seems to go down the same avenues that I have.

"Word: яд,

Near etymology: род. п. -а, ядови́тый, укр. яд, также ïд, др.-русск. ÑÐ´Ñ ,
Ñ£Ð´Ñ  "яд" (Соболевский, РФВ 64, 99), ядьно "опухоль", ст.-слав. ï“Ð´Ñ  ἰόν
(Клоц., Супр.), болг. яд(Ñ ÌÑ‚) "яд, гнев, горе", сербохорв. jа̏д "скорбь,
горе", словен. jа̑d "гнев, яд", др.-чеш. jěd, род. п. jědu "яд", чеш. jed,
слвц. jed, польск. jаd "яд животных и растений", в.-луж. jěd "яд", н.-луж.
jeÌŒd.

Further etymology: Стар. этимология считает исходным *ēdu- и сближает это
слово с и.-е. *еd- (см. еда́, ем), ср. лит. ė̃dis "еда, пища", др.-исл. át
ср. р. "кушанье", норв.-датск. ааt "приманка для хищников" (Фальк -- Торп
9). Соответственно этому толкованию здесь представлено эвфемистическое
название яда -- "кушанье"; ср. нем. Gift "яд" от gеbеn "давать", франц.
роisоn "яд" из лат. pōtiōne(m) "питье" (Мi. ЕW 98; Бругман, Grdr. 1, 131;
Брюкнер 196; AfslPh 29, 119; Соболевский, РФВ 64, 99; Младенов 701;
Мейе--Вайан 83). Другие ученые считают исходным *oid- и сравнивают это слово
с греч. οἶδος "опухоль", οἰδάω "распухаю", д.-в.-н. еiʒ "нарыв" или др.-исл.
eitr ср. р. "яд, гнев", д.-в.-н. еitаr "гной", лтш. idrа "гнилая сердцевина
дерева" (Фик, KZ 21, 5; И. Шмидт, Verw. 41; Педерсен, KZ 38, 312; IF 5, 43;
Траутман, ВSW 2 и сл.; Бецценбергер, ВВ 27, 172; Торп 2). Менее вероятно
толкование слав. jadÑ  как сложения *Ä“ и *dō, Ñ‚. е. якобы "то, что дано,
принято" (Коржинек, LF 57, 8 и сл.; 61, 53; ZfslPh 13, 416). Следует
считаться с возможностью, что и.-е. *ēdu и *oid- совпали в слав.; см.
Бернекер I, 272. См. также ядь."
I hope the above shows up in unicode! Here is a slightly abbridged
translation:

"яд _jad_: Ukrainian яд, _jad_,also ïд, _jid_, Old Russian ÑÐ´Ñ  _jadÑ , ѣдÑ
'poison' , ядьно _jad'no_, 'tumour' ; OSlavonic [the OSlav. Cyrillic
characters don't show properly on my screen, but I presume the form is:)
iadÑ  (corresponding to Greek ἰόν _ion_, from the Codex Suprasiliensis);
Bulgarian яд(Ñ ÌÑ‚) _jad(@t)_ , 'poison,' 'wrath', 'grief '; Serbo-Croat jа̏д
_jа̏d_, 'sorrow', 'grief' ; Slovenian _jа̑d_, 'anger', 'poison' ; Old Czech
_jeÌŒd_ (genitive case _jeÌŒdu_ ) 'poison', Czech _jed_ ; Slovak _jed_, Polish
_jad_, 'poison of plants and animals'. Upper Lusatian (USorbian) / Lower
Lusatian (LSorbian) _jeÌŒd _, 'poison'.

Further Etymology. The older etymology holds that the root is _*Ä“du-_, and
relates this word to the Indo-European _*еd-_ (see еда́, ем ); cf.
Lithuanian  _ė̃dis_, 'food'; OLd Icelandic _át_, (neut.) 'food, meal' ;
Dano-Norwegian _aat_, 'bait for predators'. In accordance with this I
interpret here the euphemistic name яда -- , _jada-_, 'food, meal'; cf.
German _gift_, 'poison' from _geben_, 'to give'; French _poison_, 'poison',
from Latin _pōtiōne(m)_, 'drinking, drink'. "

THE NEXT LINES ARE PERTINENT TO OUR ORIGINAL DISCUSSION!

"Other scholars include the root _*oid-_, and compare this word to the Greek
οἶδος _oidos_, 'swelling', 'tumour', οἰδάω _oidao:_, 'I swell up'; Old High
German _еiʒ_, 'abscess', or Old Icelandic _eitr_ (neut.), 'poison', 'anger',
Old High German _eitar_ , 'poison', Latvian _idra- , 'the rotten core of a
tree'.

Less believable is the suggestion that Slavonic _ jadÑ _ is a combination of
_*ē_ and _*dō_, i.e. as if to say, 'that which is usually given'. See also
ядь."

If you look up ядь, _jad'_, the Russian word for 'food', 'meal', you will
find the Russian plural noun Ð¾ÌÐ±Ñ ÐµÐ´Ð¸, _о́b-jedi_, 'remains of food for
cattle'; [I would also add the very common Russian word обед, _obed_,
'dinner' ] Old Russian ɪадь, _iad'_, 'food'; Old Slavonic (Codex
Suprasiliensis) _iad'_ 'food' : Old Prussian _ Ä«dis_, 'food', Lithuanian
_ė̃dis_, 'food'.

The problem you have when looking at the infinitive forms in the modern
Slavonic languages is solved when you see that the root for 'eating/ food'
seems to be something like _*jed/jad_.

Russian eм, _jem_, 'I eat' < Infinitive есть _jest'_ ; Ukrainian ïм,
ḯсти, _jim_, _jisty_ ; Byelorussian ем, есць, _jem_, _jets'_ ; Old
Slavonic _iem'_, _iest'_ ; Bulgarian ям,, _jam_ ; Serbocroat jе̑м, jе̏сти,
_jе̑m_, jе̏sti_ ; Slovenian _jė́m_, _jė́sti_ ; Czech _jím_, _jísti_ ;
Polisg _jem_, _jeść_ ; Upper and Lower Lusatian (Sorbian) _jěm_,
_jěsć_.

When you look at the further etymology of these forms, however, you will see
that we are dealing with two roots (I suspect the one in -d to be a kind of
perfect or perfective root), thus: Proto-Slavonic _*ědmь_, 'I eat',
Infinitive _*ěsti ; Lithuanian _ė́du_, _ė́mi_, _ė́dmi_ 1, _ė́d?iau_,
_ė́sti_, 'to eat' (of livestock) ; Latvian _ę̄du_, _e^st- ; Old Prussian
_īst_, 'to eat' ; Sanskrit _ádmi_, _átti_ ; Armenian _utem_, 'I eat' (from
Indo-European _*ōd-_); Greek ἔδω,_edo:_, ἔσθίω, _esthio:_,ἔσθω, _estho:_
;Latin _edō_, _ēdī_ ; Gothic _itan_ , past tense _at_ ; Old High German
_еʒʒan_, 'to eat' .

John Duckworth

Preston, UK

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Greetings Lowlanders!

Looking into the possible connection of words for 'poison', 'venom' and
words for 'food' and 'to eat' got me thinking. First I thought of a possible
connection between the Indo-European words 'to eat', etc., and the Turkic
words _ot_, _od_, meaning 'herb', 'grass', and so on. Though this lies well
within Ron's field it is nevertheless a little off subject for this list.
Then I started to think about the English word _oat(s)_. I don't seem to be
able to think of any etymologies for this word outside the Anglo-Saxon area.
Old English, if my memory serves me right, used the form _a:t_, but does
anyone know of any cognates in the other Lowlands languages or beyond?
Surely Frisian at least must use a similar word?

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, John.

As for "oats," the Oxford Dictionary gives:

<quote>
[Cognate with West Frisian _oat_, Dutch _oot_, Dutch regional (West Flemish)
_ate_, _ote_, (Zeeland) _ōōt_, _ōōte_, all in sense 'wild oat' (cf. sense
3); further etymology uncertain: perh. < the same Indo-European base as
ancient Greek οἱδεῖν]
</quote>

I have to admit that I, too, have thought of Altaic as a possible origin,
namely Turkic *_ot_ (cf. Mongolic *_(h)otul_ and Tungusic *_okta_) 'herb',
'grass', as a possible origin.  Perhaps it should not be discounted out of
hand, considering that many plants reached Europe from Central Asia.  In
fact, oats (_Gramineae. Avena_ sp) are believed to be of Asian origin.  This
certainly applies to ordinary oat (_Avena sativa_) and large naked oat
(_Avena nuda_), perhaps among the oldest surviving types.  Though kernels
have been found at ancient Egyptian sites and at Bronze Age sites in
Switzerland, oats as a major crop plant is believed to have reached Europe
from Asia Minor, thus from what is now Turkey, which already before Turkish
power had close ties with Central Asia.  It is in Asia Minor that oats are
found in their greatest variety.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================