LL-L "Etymology" 2004.06.14 (03) [E]

Mon Jun 14 21:06:00 UTC 2004

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "False friends" 2004.06.13 (02) [D/E]

John Duckworth wrote describing the Anglo-Saxon and Norse origins of "sick"
and "ill" respectively. I'd go along with his assessment, except to point
out as strongly as I can that "ill" is predominant around Nottingham (John
suggested "sick" was, perhaps in a confused misreading of my original post).
This is hardly surprising as Nottingham was long a part of the Danelaw.

With regard to Peter Snepvangers contribution about "sick" meaning "cool" in
Australia - this is certainly an innovation, but it may be confined to the
eastern states. I never once heard it when I lived in Western Australia, and
I worked at a school there.

Criostóir.

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: False Friends

Peter Snepvangers said:

"One of the new usages for sick now is for sick meaning "totally cool". Not
in the usual sense meaning as hip, up to the minute, exciting, new but in a
tangental sense, a clever sense of cool. It is used by the teenagers and
ethnic (middle eastern, asian, lebanese)
Aussies originally but is gaining acceptance with all mainstream kids."

It is used in the same context by teenagers here; 'Wow! That's sick, man!'
Or just an exclamated,'Sick!' There are one or two other apparent reversals
of meaning used to show various levels of approval among teenagers on the
street; unfortunately I can only remember 'wicked!' and 'Evil!' both of
which are a little dated now.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK.

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From: Wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.06.14 (02) [E]

From: wim verdoold. wkv at home.nl

Hi,  about crooked...  the dutch words verkreukeld, gekreukt, en
gekrookt  are coming to my mind, all meaning the same.    ( crumple,
what you do to paper , or a reed that you try to break).

Hope this was any help..

Wim.

http://members.home.nl/wkv/index.html

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Henry Pijffers:

> > Also, Ron, is _krank_ used in Low Saxon alongside cognates of _sick_ ?
> >
> In my Low Saxon dialect the word krank is sometimes used to mean ill.
> But usually the word seyk (sik, with superlength i) is used.

What Netherlands group of Lowlands Saxon does your dialect belong to again,
Henry?  Twente?

Again, in North Saxon dialects of the German side of the border, too, you
can say both _süyk_ ~ _syk_ (German spelling <süük> ~ <siek>, Dutch spelling
<zuuk> ~ <ziek>) or _krank_.  Also, 'hospital' can be _süykenhuus_ ~
_sykenhuus_ (German spelling <Sükenhuus> ~ <Siekenhuus>, Dutch spelling
<zuuknhoes> ~ <zieknhoes>) or _krankenhuus_ (German spelling <Krankenhuus>,
Dutch spelling <kraanknhoes>).  I have a feeling that the use of _krank_ and
derivations thereof is on the increase due to German influence (_krank_,
_Krankenhaus_).

Andrys Onsman:

> Whilst agreeing with most of what Ron has to say about "crook", I think
that
> Australians too mostly use crooked when speaking of bent cops. A crook cop
> is a
> sick policeman, a crooked cop is a corrupt policeman. As a current
resident
> in
> Melbourne, I read daily reports in the media about the latter. A quick
> Google
> search for crook cops gives 4 results, for crooked cops 796. Perhaps
> dishonest
> policemen rarely get ill.

I wonder if this is because of American media influence offering a way out
of a potentially ambiguous construction.

By the way, note also the use of _bent_ (past participle of "to bend") in
the sense of "illicit" or "twisted."  In American slang I have come across
the slang phrase "the cop is bent" or "bent cop," denoting the same as
"crooked cop" (Has anyone else?), namely a police officer that has gone
"bad" (hence the alternative "bad cop").  So there is definitely a common
theme; all the loose ends seem to meet: "crook(ed)," "crank(y)" and "bent"
all start off with the idea of "not straight" and end up being used to mean
"not right," "out of the ordinary," "out of sorts," etc., physically,
morally or psychologically.

I wrote:

> I should add that English _cranc_ > "crank" is suspected to have been
> derived from the Old English verb _crincan_ (thus morphophonemically
> /krink-/) 'to fall in battle', originally meaning 'to curl up'.

This may be a clue to the semantic origin of the three adjectives mentioned
above.  You are all right ("normal") if you walk or stand upright, and
especially if you are upright in battle.  If you double over (bend over) or
curl up, you are assumed to be physically injured, ill, or whatever, i.e.,
"abnormal," "not as it should be."

Andrys further wrote:

> But I have no idea why "going crook at" means getting angry with in
> Australian

Well, it kind of makes sense to me.  If you look at my previous paragraph it
might make sense to you too.  "Not right," "not as usual," might also be
applied to mood.  If someone suddenly displays anger toward you ("having a
go at you," as they say in Britain) and this is unusual, he or she is
turning "weird," "different from usual," "not as it should be," almost like
mentally ill.  Hence also American English "mad" for "angry," probably
originally in the sense of "mad with anger."

John Duckworth:

> It is used in the same context by teenagers here; 'Wow! That's sick, man!'
> Or just an exclamated,'Sick!' There are one or two other apparent
reversals
> of meaning used to show various levels of approval among teenagers on
> the street; unfortunately I can only remember 'wicked!' and 'Evil!' both
of
> which are a little dated now.

I assume that's along the same lines as "bad" at one (short) time being used
to mean "good," at least in American slang.  I furthermore assume that
things of this sort are flashes in the pan, here today and gone tomorrow,
products of folks in a rebellious phase in which values are shifted, twisted
and turned around in-your-face fashion, a phase in which "being bad" is
"being good," "cool," "sweet," etc.  So, if someone deliberately does
something "sick" (i.e., something perverse, seemingly mentally twisted,
offensive to those "old farts" who value traditional norms) it may be
considered "good," "cool," "right on," "bad," "awesome," or whatever the
current term may be, among his or her equally rebellion-obsessed peers.

Wim Verdoold:

> Hi,  about crooked...  the dutch words verkreukeld, gekreukt, en
> gekrookt  are coming to my mind, all meaning the same.    ( crumple,
> what you do to paper , or a reed that you try to break).

North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German):

krük (<Krück>) 'crook', 'crique', 'bent walking stick'
krökel (<Krökel> ~ <Krœkel>) 'wrinkle', '(tight) curl'
krökelig (<krökelig> ~ <krœkelig>) 'wrinkled', 'crumpled', '(very) curly',
'frizzy'
krökeln (<krökeln> ~ <krœkeln>) 'cause to be wrinkled,crumpled or tightly
curled'

I assume the _-l(-)_ here is a diminutive marker, thus "small bend/curl."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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