LL-L "Syntax" 2004.06.23 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 23.JUN.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.06.23 (02) [E]

Lowlands-L wrote:
 >
> I've been doing some transcription of tapes & have
> become aware of a phrase used by a number of people in
> the Northumberland area of England. They 'for-to-get'
> as in "you needs lots of money 'for-to-get' that car".
> Its doesn't mean 'forgotten'. Is this used anywhere
> else around the globe.
>
It's used in Dutch by some people, and by analogy to Dutch in
Netherlands Saxon perhaps. In Dutch some people say "Je hebt veel geld
nodig voor een auto te krijgen".

regards,
Henry

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Syntax

Henry, the person you quoted above was Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
(not Lowlands-L).

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.06.23 (02) [E]

> From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Phrases
>
> Dear all,
>
> I've been doing some transcription of tapes & have
> become aware of a phrase used by a number of people in
> the Northumberland area of England. They 'for-to-get'
> as in "you needs lots of money 'for-to-get' that car".
> Its doesn't mean 'forgotten'. Is this used anywhere
> else around the globe.
>
> Gan canny,
>
> Glenn Simpson
> Northumbrian Language Society
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Syntax
>
> Hi, Glenn!
>
> It's good to hear from you, as always.
>
> Isn't the phrase "for to get" related to the older "for to"-type of
phrases
> denoting "in order to" or "with the purpose of"?
>
>    Oh, I went down South
>    FOR TO SEE my Sal
>    ...
>                     (Polly Wolly Doodle)
>
>    ...
>    She's lying at the quay
>    FOR TO TAKE our Pat with a shovel on his back
>    To the shores of Botany Bay
>    ...
>                     (Botany Bay)
>
> I have a feeling this type of phrase is not unusual in Germanic language
> varieties.  In German you use the construction _um ({object}) zu
> {infinitive}_, thus _um den Wagen zu kaufen_ 'in order to (be able to) buy
> that car'.  Likewise, in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) you can us the
> construction _üm ({object}) tou {infinitive}_, thus _üm den wagen tou
> köypen_ for the same thing (though this sounds somewhat _geel_ "yellow,"
> i.e., German, more colloquial being conditional _wen den wagen köypen
wult_
> "if you want to buy that car").

It is not uncommon to hear it in colloquial (some would say "plat" =
uncouth) speach:

Ik ga naar de winkel voor een brood te kopen.
(I go to the shop for a bread to buy, literally)
instead of standard Dutch
Ik ga naar de winkel om een brood te kopen.
Or the equally correct (but without the verb)
Ik ga naar de winkel voor (een) brood.
(Or slightly unusual, but correct IMHO;  my wife disagrees though)
Ik ga naar de winkel om brood.

The incorrect form seems some sort of contamination between the correct ones
> Might this type of phrase have been petrified in the set phrase "for to
get"
> in Northumbrian?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Regards

Henno Brandsma

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