LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.14 (02) [E]

Sun Nov 14 19:30:41 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.11.13 (06) [E]

The origions of the word silly in English at least, is 'holy', as in
obsessivly so, to the point of no reason. It spread then into the meaning of
'having no reason', to todays meaning of being lightheartedly stupid.

In Hiberno English, the word eejit has the same meaning, also in Ulster
Scots.

In gaelic there are two words for fool: amadan and fludreithmain, for male
and female respectivly. Local dialects and slang have words like 'cloots'
for a fool or 'clootish' for foolish.

Indeed Ulster Scots is spoken by more than the scots: many Irish in the
planter areas of Ulster and north leinster have their dialect heavily
influenced by Ulster Scots, with words like oxter for elbow, fornint for
opposite etc., etc.

Tomas O' Carthaigh
AN TEANGA NUA
http://www.teanganua.pro.ie

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.11.13 (06) [E]

>>>>> I see now, Reinhard.
I mixed up the English "silly goose" with the Dutch "domme gans", but the
two don't seem to have identical meanings.
In Dutch we use this expression "een domme gans" or "een dom gansje" too,
lit. a dumb/silly/stupid goose.
It is usually said about  not too smart, empty-headed, thoughtless
profligates. In fact it is used for girls and young women
only. And I'm confident enough about myself to say that at least I'm not a
woman... That's the reason I took it more seriously
than necessary. But I have said enough about it now, everything is fine,
nema problema! Ingmar

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.11.13 (06) [E]

 >>>>> Moin Buttje. You spoke about yourself as a Hamborger  _Buttje_ looks
a bit like Dutch _boertje_ = small farmer, peasant and Afrikaans _boetie_
which must come from_broertjie_ = little brother, Dutch _broertje_. Or has
it something to do with Dutch etc. _botje_ = small bone?

A curious Quiddje... (or can we, Low Saxons of the Netherlands, also lay
claim to that honorary nickname Buttje?)

By the way, I found the book. It's even more interesting than the original
version in some ways, because unlike in the original, the etymology of Dutch
and Flemish place names is also explained in the copy of De Vries'
Etymologisch Woordenboek you will get. I can send it to you on Monday, that
is, if I know where to of course... Ingmar

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.11.13 (06) [E]

Hmmm... I just came back from a long rehearsal weekend with my choir, for
our upcoming concert, and I tried to find my way back through all these
"silly waterfowl" allusions, but I still can't see how on earth my name got
in there... oh well. So now I'll never know whether I have a sense of
humour, or not. Bummer. And I'm also not too sure whether I have reason to
be insulted. Please tell me if I do, and who I should be mad at, to save me
the trouble of further research. I sort of got the impression - correct me
if I'm wrong - that, while Ron and Ingmar were insulting each other, both of
them took great care to insult me, too, on the side, while they were at it -
or were they each defending me? And what would be worse?

Ron, you need to learn the difference between a "silly goose" and a "silly
moose". I though you'd know by now.

As for the "queen of the peanut gallery" - let me quote Hyacinth Bucket
(pronounced: Bouquet) from the BBC series "Keeping Up Appearances" ("De
schone schijn" in Dutch): "I am often mistaken for royalty!"

But since this thread is called "idiomatica", here's a goose-related
question: what about all those really odd English collective nouns for
naturally occurring groups of animals, especially birds? There are some of
those in German, too, especially in hunters' jargon, but nowhere near as
many - I can think of no more than twelve to fifteen, maybe - well, perhaps
twenty max, but that would already be pushing it. Here's just an excerpt I
found on the Internet, and this list is far from being complete.

a barren of mules,
a bale of turtles,
a bank of swans,
a bevy of quail,
a bouquet of pheasants [when flushed]
a brood of hens
a building of rooks
a business of ferrets,
a cete of badgers,
a cast of hawks [or falcons]
a charm of hummingbirds,
a chattering of starlings,
a clamor of rooks,
a coil of teal,
a colony of penguins
a company of parrots
a congregation of plovers
a convocation of eagles,
a cover of coots
a covey of partridges [or grouse or ptarmigans]
a cowardice of curs,
a crash of rhinoceri,
a deceit of lapwings
a descent of woodpeckers
a dissimulation of birds
a dole of doves
a down of hares,
an exaltation of larks,
a fall of woodcocks,
a flight of swallows [or doves, goshawks, or cormorants]
a gaggle of geese,
a gam of whales,
A host of sparrows
a hover of trout,
a hurtle of sheep,
a husk of jackrabbits,
a  kettle of hawks [riding a thermal]
a knot of toads,
a labor of moles,
a leap of leopards,
a mob of kangaroos,
a murder of crows,
a murmuration of starlings or doves
a mustering of storks,
a mutation of thrushes,
a nest of cottontails,
a nye of pheasants [on the ground]
an ostentation of peacocks,
a pace of asses,
a paddling of ducks [on the water],
a parliament of owls,
a party of jays
a peep of chickens
a pitying of turtles,
a plump of ducks,
a pod of seals,
a pride of lions,
a quantity of smelt,
a raft of ducks,
a rafter of turkeys
a rag of camels
a school of fish
a sedge of herons
a shoal of bass
a shrewdness of apes
a siege of bitterns
a skein of geese [in flight]
a sloth of bears
a smack of jellyfish
a sord of mallards
a spring of teal
a style of pigs
a tittering of magpies
a tribe of goats
a trip of dotterel
a troop of baboons
an unkindness of ravens
a watch of nightingales
a wedge of swans [or geese, flying in a "V"]
a wing of plovers
a wisp of snipe

Is there anything comparable in any other language anyone can think of?
And - WHY????

Gabriele Kahn

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

> From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>

Go mbeannaí dia dhaoibh, a chairdhe!  An fairfaa ye tae the Leet, Tam!

Gabriele, the Singing Royal Moose:

> Ron, you need to learn the difference between a "silly goose" and a "silly
> moose". I though you'd know by now.

I guess I'll never learn.

> that, while Ron and Ingmar were insulting each other, both of
> them took great care to insult me, too, on the side, while they were at
> it -
> or were they each defending me?

Actually, I took great pleasure in bestowing peerage upon you.  And Ingmar
and I are buddies.  So there!

> let me quote Hyacinth Bucket

Couldn't live without a periodic fix of Hyacinth.

> Is there anything comparable in any other language anyone can think of?
> And - WHY????

I don't think there are (m)any languages that reach that level of collective
noun classifier "sophisitication," though some languages try.  It must have
been a special sport to create those words in England.  By the way, in East
Asian languages you can find large numbers of such classifiers that can be
used not only for uncountable nouns and for groups but also for individual
items and creatures, often determined by their shape, consistency, use,
status, etc.  (e.g., 兩位客 "two seat guests" = 'two guest', 這位先生 "that seat
gentleman" = 'that gentleman', "seat" hailing back to seats of honor,
meaning in extension "position" and "status," where the use of the neutral
counter 個 would be disrespectful in certain contexts).  But these are things
we should discuss under "Lexicon," though I guess I know why you wanted to
bring this up in connection with "silly."

Ingmar:

> >>>>> Moin Buttje. You spoke about yourself as a Hamborger  _Buttje_ looks
> a bit like Dutch _boertje_ = small farmer, peasant and Afrikaans _boetie_
> which must come from_broertjie_ = little brother, Dutch _broertje_. Or has
> it something to do with Dutch etc. _botje_ = small bone?

It's the diminutive of _but_ (<Butt> [bUt], masculine, plural _büt_ <Bütt>
[bYt]) and apparently is related to Dutch _bot_ 'flounder', 'bud', thus a
fish.  Usually in its diminutive form, it denotes a little boy, an urchin,
_een jochie_.  I'm wondering if there is, after all, a connection with what
in Dutch is _bot_ 'blunt', 'stubby'; so your association with _botje_ may
not be too far off.

What may be interesting to some of you is that on a visit a few years ago I
was reminded that most people in Hamburg call a budgerigar (American
"parakeet," _Melopsittacus undulatus_) _Buttje_ by default, such as when
they don't know the real given name.  (_Komm, Buttje, Buttje!_)  I hadn't
made the connection before, but now I suspect that it was inspired by
English "budgie," which is a derivation from "budgerigar," which comes from
"Native Australian" (which?!) _budgerigar_ ~ _boodgerigar_ "good cockatoo"
via Australian English.  I asked around and found out that, indeed, some or
many people in Hamburg use _Buttje_ as an alternative word for
_Wellensittich_, the German word for "budgerigar."  Is this another
indication of Hamburg's traditional maritime link with the English-speaking
world?

> A curious Quiddje... (or can we, Low Saxons of the Netherlands, also lay
> claim to that honorary nickname Buttje?)

Strictly speaking, you'd have no chance of losing the _Quiddje_ status as
any non-local, unless you adapted so well in every way that people forgot
you came from somewhere else.  However, I could well imagine that another
Lowlander may be considered a part of non-_Quiddje_-dom if seen in
opposition to someone from the Alps or some other "far-southern" location
... or from just below the Lowlands-Saxon-speaking region, or a Lowlanders
that acts southern and knows little about local culture.  However, all this
is fast fading away -- and good riddance to it, I s'pose -- as Hamburg is
becoming both more German and more cosmopolitan and thus more
_Quiddje_-cized.  Everytime I visit I hear people use really "high" and
southern terms in place of local ones.  In other words, this, like most
things, comes with an upside and a downside.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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