LL-L "Phonology" 2004.09.30 (12) [E]

Fri Oct 1 00:07:06 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.09.30 (01) [E]

> From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: Pronunciation
>
> Re that famous Frisian phrase "bûter, brea en griene tsiis". It's
similarity
> to "butter, bread and green cheese" is supposed to indicate the closeness
of
> Modern English and Frisian.
>
> According to my Frisian language course, "bûter" is pronounced as it might
> be in the North of England;
> "brea" like "bray-e" with the second part of the diphthong short; "griene"
> like "gree-e-ne" with the second element of the diphthong unemphatic;
> "tsiis" as with a German initial "z".

brea is pronounced more like bri+e (where bri sounds as in Brit) and a
similar sounding second part of the diphthong as in griene.

> On this basis the two phrases are very different. Can anyone throw any
light
> on this conundrum?

There are a few things: the Frisian (ie West Frisian) sounds probably more
like the English would have sounded like in Chaucer's day, and this phrase
has been used for a long time (certainly a few centuries). eg the -r is
still rolled and there is still inflection in "griene". Also Frisian has
changed a bit: eg. tsiis used to be "tsjiis" (spelled tsjiez in Gysbert
Japickx' days), where the j- has disappeared before the long i-sound (as it
has in "jier" which is pronounced "ier" [i. at r], "year"). This tsj- sounds
more like the ch-fricative in modern English. I suppose that butter sounded
more like [but at r] in earlier English (while Dutch had boter (or butter /
botter in many dialects)), and that the Northern pronounciation reflects
this.

The main reason I think this is cited, is the common changes it reflects,
and that were not shared by non-Ingvaeonic dialects: grien < [gre:n] <
*[grö:ne] < *[gro:n + i] where the word had an umlaut causing -i that caused
the long o: to front. This was derounded in both Old Frisian and Old
English. and after that they even shared the further fronting (in the GVS in
English and Frisian) of [e:] to [i:], which moved them further away from
Dutch (which has no umlaut here, "groen"), German ("grün") and Low Saxon
(greun, gruun, gruin are the variants that I know of).
Another common innovation was the fronting of a: to e: (or keeping of old
e_1) in words like sheep (skiep), year (jier), hair (hier), but also in old
loans like cheese/tsiis. Moreover, both varieties palatalised k to tsj/ch-
before those fronted vowels, contrary to Dutch (kaas), German (Käse) and Low
Saxon (kees, keis or somesuch form). So this phrase also contains this
common innovation. Also both varieties have had a similar fronting of the
monophtongisation of Germanic "au" (as in "bread", and Frisian "brea" (<
bra:(d)), but this is more the result of a common tendency to front and
diphthongise. Also preserving the [u]-sound in earlier English (as it has in
Frisian) might have helped this phrase. In all, it's a lot closer to English
in its shared tendencies and innovations than it is to eg Dutch (boter,
brood en groene kaas), which helped to emphasize Frisian distinctness vs
Dutch.

Henno

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.09.30 (01) [E]

Dear John & All,

Subject: Pronunciation

> Re that famous Frisian phrase "bûter, brea en griene tsiis". It's
> similarity to "butter, bread and green cheese" is supposed to indicate
> the closeness of Modern English and Frisian.

For related languages, even some remotely related, a quick ear can often
support, & even anticipate,  fluency. This is where fuzzy logic comes into
play, & if a good guess is supported by logic & regularity, progress can be
impressive (& treacherous). Such is my experience, for example, with
Yiddish & Hebrew, & so also I found when I depended too much on my
guesses: 'mita' & 'met' (bed & death). 'xita' & 'xet' (corn & sin): These
were not the most spectacular, & I will not even mention the difference
between punishment & rape...

My point being that (the test phrase as it is presented in my family):
" 'Good butter and green cheese' is good English and good Fries" [English]
is rather closer to
" 'Gode bûter en griene tsiis' is gode English en gode Fries." than the
[Afrikaans] (for just one LG example)
" 'Goeie botter en groene kaas' is goeie Engels en goeie Fries." & worlds
closer than
"Khemah tov vegvina varoda' zeh Anglit tov veFriz tov." [Hebrew].
"brea" Fries, "bread" English, "brood" Afrikaans, "Lekhem" Hebrew, (BTW).

Englishmen say, "I smoke my pipe", some
Low Germans say, "Ik smokke myne pipeh" (My orthography), the
Nederlander says."Ek rook mij pijp", & the
Highj German says," Ich roche meine feife"
[I apologise for my appalling spelling in all cases - it is to support my
thesis]. Do you not concede there is a degree of graduation in the change
from the nearer to the more remote language?

Fuzzy logic? Ron has raised the point already that the orthography is more
different than the pronunciation in the Teutonic tongues. People willing to
understand will accept cues of the 'more like & less like' variety rather
than 'exactly like or unlike', as long as their guesses are - sort of -
supported by experience. & that is also one more way to learn a "sort of"
'similar' language. It permits extrapolation, which is a legitimate
linguistic device, & it promotes memorisation.

> On this basis the two phrases are very different. Can anyone throw any
> light on this conundrum?

It's not light, John, but dust, but there it is.

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

To whom it may concern:

North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German):

Goude botter un gröyn(e(n)) keys' is goud Engelsch un goud Vreys.

<Gode Botter un gröön (~ gröne(n)) Kees is goot Engelsch un goot Frees.>
['goUde 'bOt3` Un gr9.In(e) kE:Iz Is goUt E.N=lS Un goUt frE.Is]

Lower Elbe:
<Gode Botter un greun(e(n)) Kees is goot Engelsch un goot Frees.>
['goUde 'bOt3` Un grO.In(e) kE:Iz Is goUt E.N=lS Un goUt frE.Is]

Southern Heath:
<Gaude Botter un greun(e(n)) Keis is gaut Engelsch un gaut Freis.>
['gaUde 'bOt3` Un gr9.In(e) ka:Iz Is gaUt E.N=lS Un gaUt frE.Is]

Goude butter un gröyn(e(n)) keys' is goud Ingelsch un goud Vrys.
<Gode Butter un gröön (~ gröne(n)) Kees is goot Ingelsch un goot Frees.>
['goUde 'bUt3` Un gr9.In(e) kE:Iz Is goUt I.N=lS Un goUt frE.Is]

< > = German-type spelling.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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