LL-L "Names" 2004.10.06 (07) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.10.06 (01) [E]

Ron wrote:
> So what does it mean?  I take it it's of Germanic origin and this _-lo_ --
> also written _-loh_ elsewhere in Germany (e.g., Gütersloh) or _-loch_
(e.g.,
> Degerloch) and _-lo_ or _-loo_ in the Low Franconian areas (e.g.,
Waterloo),
> also in Oslo in Norway -- means 'wooded area'.

Actually, my home village in Lower Saxony is called "Fredelsloh", and the
neighbour village is "Oldenrode". I believe there is more than one village
named Oldenrode in Northern Germany; this one is probably the smallest and
most insignificant - the road that leads there is a dead end! Also, nearby
are the towns of Osterode and Wernigerode in the Harz mountains, and several
other villages with that ending (Suterode, Großenrode, Lüttgenrode). The
meanings are probably:

Oldenrode = old clearcut
Suterode = southern clearcut
Osterode = eastern clearcut
Großenrode = large clearcut
Lüttgenrode = small clearcut
Wernigerode = Werner's clearcut (?)

In school, we learned that "-loh" designates a place where they burned down
the forest in order to have room for their settlement ("Lohe" is an old word
for fire, or flame), or possibly just built at the site of a natural fire,
and that the ending "-rode" means that a clearing was cut and the remaing
stubs dug (or dragged, with chains and teams of oxen or horses) out of the
ground.

But I seem to remember we have discussed this before?

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Names"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Names
>
> Folks,
>
> I need your help with some of the names of the "Wendland," the formerly
> Slavonic (Polabian) area south of Hamburg, Germany.  I do not know if
anyone
> has defined the area, and I suspect that originally it was much larger
than
> the "Hannoversch Wendland" we know of, not only extending farther east but
> also north and south.
>
> Below is a list of German place names of the area (most of them within
Lower
> Saxony, a few just across the border in Saxony-Anhalt).  I believe that at
> least some of them are of Polabian origin.  Those that are definitely not
> are enclosed in sqare brackets ([ ]).  Since most German place names in
the
> north of Germany are derived from Lowlands Saxon (Low German) names it
would
> be nice to have as many of the LS versions as possible.  I have put
> hypothetical LS versions after the German ones, marked with an asterix
(*).
> I am sure about a few and have not marked them.
>
> Can you help me by confirming or correcting the names?
>
> The list is below.
>
> Thank you very much in advance.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
> P.S.: Note that Lowlands Saxon originally did not have the phoneme /c/
("tz"
> as in German _Katze_), only had the phoneme sequence /ts/ divided by a
> morpheme border, much like English (e.g., /kat+s/ "cats").  It is very
rare
> now.  In other words, what in Lowlands Saxon is written <tz>, <z> or <ts>
in
> German-based spelling tends to be German- or Slavonic-derived.
>
> ***
>
> German = Lowlands Saxon (Low German)
>
> Bardowick = *Bardowick
> Cheine = *Chein
> Clenze = *Clenz
> [Dannenberg = *Dannenbarg]
> [Bergen = *Bargen]
> Göhrde = *Göhr
> [Hitzacker = *Hittacker]
> Lübbow = *Lübbow
> Lüchow = *Lüchow
> [Lüneburg = Lüünborg]
> Mechau = *Mecha
> Müden = *Müden
> Neetze = *Neetz
> Neu Darchau = *Nee Darcha
> Ochtmissen = *Ochtmissen
> Oerzen = *Oerzen
> Prezelle = *Prezell
> Rosche = *Rosch
> Schmarsau = *Smarsa
> Schmessau = *Smessa
> Sprötze = Spröötz
> Süthen = *Süthen
> Trebel = *Trebel
> Uelzen = *Uelzen
> Wietze = *Wietz
> Wietzendorf = *Wietzendörp
> Wilsede = *Wilsede
> Wirsen = *Wirsen
> Wriedel = *Wriedel
> Wustrow = *Wustrow
>
Hello Ron !
I don't know the Low Saxon dialect of the Wendland area but for Your
hypothetical LS place-names You probably should think about changes from G:
ö to LS: e (Göhrde/Gehr*) and G: ü / LS: ö. With the consonants there could
also be a change from G: z to LS: s (Prezelle/Presell*). The G: ü in many of
these names might be an old Slavonic -u- following a palatalized consonant
(-lü- / -lju-).
Are You sure, all the names in square brackets aren't of Polabian origin ?
Couldn't -berg- be derived from a word like "bereg", "breg"  or so meaning
shore, bank (of the river Elbe)?
Greetings
Holger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Thanks, Gabriele.

Yes, we have discussed this before.  I'm not sure if at that time anyone
mentioned that some people have claimed that this denoted the bonfire sites
of pre-Christian places of worship.  I take that with a somewhat large grain
of salt.

On another note, there is a place in Sleswig/Schleswig/Slesvig called plain
and simple Lohe in German (Loh in LS I believe) and Lo in Danish.  Not
far away there is a place called Loheide in German (Lohei(d') in LS?) and
Lohede(n) in Danish (the second part denoting 'heath').

There's a neat Danish website listing Danish, German and North Frisian place
names of the area:

http://www.slesvignavne.dk/

Thanks to you, too, for the help, Holger!

> I don't know the Low Saxon dialect of the Wendland area but for Your
> hypothetical LS place-names You probably should think about changes from
G:
> ö to LS: e (Göhrde/Gehr*) and G: ü / LS: ö. With the consonants there
could
> also be a change from G: z to LS: s (Prezelle/Presell*). The G: ü in many
of
> these names might be an old Slavonic -u- following a palatalized consonant
> (-lü- / -lju-).

Yes, all good points, and points I've been considering.  I used to assume
that the LS version of Lüneburg was *Löönborg (actually with a diphthong
([9.I] ~ [O.I]: *Löynborg), which would be regular, but I was corrected and
told it was "Lüünborg."  This makes me suspect even more that it is not
entirely Germanic in origin.  In fact, there is a place Lüne, now a part of
Lüneburg (ca. 1 km from the city center), with Lüne Convent (Kloster Lüne,
well worth a visit: http://www.kloster-luene.de/).

As a child I used to assume, for some reason, that the city was named after
a river called Lüne.  However, there seems to be no such river.  The stream
that runs through the city is called Ilmenau ("banks/waterway of Ilme") in
German.  Lüne is a place, so your theory of _-burg_/-_borg_ being derived
from Slavonic *_bergÑ _ (> Draveno-Polabian _brig_) 'bank', 'shore', is less
likely to hold water than that of the name coming from a fortress (_borg_)
of/by Lüne, perhaps the Saxon settlement next to the Slavonic one.  Before
Draveno-Polabian became extinct, the name of Lüneburg was Glain in that
language, which I reconstruct for Pre-Modern Polabian as *Glin or *Glín
(which would correspond to *Hlín in Czech and Slovak, *Glin in Lower Sorbian
and Polish, and *Hlin in Upper Sorbian, *GlinÑ  in Proto-Slavonic, which
makes me think of _glina_ 'clay'). I am wondering if this _G-_ used to be a
separate morpheme, much like _Z-_ is in Upper Sorbian _Zhorjelc_ and Polish
_Zgorzelec_ (*"from the mountain/upper side"?) for German _Görlitz_, a name
of a city divided by the Polish-German border, a name that clearly contains
the word _gora_ (> _hora_) 'mountain' (assumedly referring to the mountain
called Landskrone in German).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron



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