LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.10.10 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.10.09 (11) [E/LS/Middelsprake]

Yes, I've heard about the Mennonites and their backgrounds.
My father and grandmother told me about them and showed me some pictures of
Mennonites, from the time they (my f.+gm.) lived in Ontario.
Plautdietsch phonetics seem very far Eastern Low and Middle German
(Prussian?) with Slavonic influences to me at first sight, not at all Dutch,
Frisian or Groningers. Maybe only the first group of founders were of Dutch
descendance and the ones that joined later were local Prussian etc (Low)
Germans?
It would seem unlogically to me to suppose they are all originally Dutch and
Western Low Saxon Mennonites who switched from their own dialect(s) to the
local Prussian Low German, because one of their strongest features is
exactly to hold on to their own language (and other traditions).

One funny coincidence is the Mennonite adjective to refer to themselves
"mennische", in Middelsprake "mennische" means human being/man! Ingmar

> From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
> Subject: Language varieties
> Ingmar,
> Jim is one of our valued members of Mennonite background (which we have in
> Germany, Canada, USA, Mexico and Russia, possibly elsewhere as well) and
> speaks their northeastern (Slavonic-influenced) variety of Lowlands Saxon
> (Low German) that originated at the Vistula Delta in Northern Poland. They
> call their dialect "Plautdietsch" (< _Plattdüütsch_).  Their ancestors
came
> from the Netherlands (mostly from Friesland and Groningen, their esteemed
> founder Menno Simons having been a Westerlauwer Fries) and Northern
Germany
> and then migrated from Western Prussia to Ukraine and from there
throughout
> Eurasia and the Americas.  Since the crumbling of the Iron Curtain, many
are
> remigrating to Germany now, so that Germany now has the largest population
> of them.   And we love them dearly wherever they may be living.
>
> A wonderful worldwide Plautdietsch magazin is being published in Germany
by
> Peter Wiens (originally from Russia and Estonia, I think), one of the most
> fantastic, dearest people you can possibly imagine.  (Talking about
"eydel"
> ...)  This glossy hardcover magazin, _Plautdietsch Friend_, is very well
> presented and worth subscribing to.
>
> Lewe Jriesse aun all onse mennische Friend on Verwaundte in de gaunze
Walt!
> Loot mool wadda waut von Ji here!
>
> Reinhard/Ron

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.10.09 (11) [E/LS/Middelsprake]

Oh I just read your own explanation about mennonite Plautdietsch again.
It answers most of my questions below already... Ingmar

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Language varieties

Ingmar,

Their ancestors left the Netherlands (under duress) a long time ago, in the
16th century, I believe.  If other people from the Netherlands followed
them, of that I'm not sure, though I assume that they did, for a while at
least.  They clearly mixed with other people along the way and in their new
homelands, though their relative closeness made that a little more
difficult.  (Mennonites do proselytize, though, and thus do admit converted
outsiders.)

At any rate, though there seem to be a few Dutch, Frisian and Western
Lowlands Saxon traces in Plautdietsch, I think it was simply a case of a new
group immigrant adopting the dominant and/or most closely related language
when the Mennonites settled along the Vistula Delta.  They spoke the local
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialect(s) in everyday life and used German for
"high" purposes, and they have been doing so ever since, though (more)
Slavonic, Turkic, English, Spanish and Portuguese influences were added to
that later.

As for Yiddish, which you talk about under "Literature," note that
apparently the "West Yiddish" you mentioned is a commonly use misnomer for
Eastern Yiddish influenced by Dutch and other West European languages.  It
is simply Eastern Yiddish brought by East- and Central-European immigrants.
If any, very, very few traces of Western Yiddish survive, reportedly in
Lorraine and in Switzerland.  However, this group of dialects ought to be
considered as good as extinct.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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