LL-L "Etymology" 2004.10.26 (06) [E]
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Tue Oct 26 23:43:16 UTC 2004
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Frank Verhoft <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
Subject: Etymology
Hi
<<<In Dutch there is a word I have not seen in LS or Deutsch. MOOI does it
come from the Spanish MUY?<<<
I saw a similar question in another list, connecting "mooi" (beautiful) and
"muy" (very) via the double usage of ""pretty" (beautiful, and 'very', as in
'pretty smart'). IMHO, it was a nice play with words, but nothing more... I
don't see any connection between Dutch 'mooi' and Spanish 'muy', i must say,
apart from a very superficial, formal similarity.
It would be difficult to connect "mooi" (or even its earlier attestation
"moy") with Spanish "muy", since it was attested a few hundred years before
the Spanish governors in the Low Countires.
<<<Can anyone help with this and other Spanish words in Dutch?<<<
Most Spanish words that entered Dutch did so in the (late) 16th and 17th
century. But the language of the higher echelons remained French!
A sample from Van der Sijs's "Leenwoordenboek. De invloed van andere talen
op het Nederlands" (Boek of loanwords, the influence of other languages on
Dutch)
- Terms related to ships, sailing and hence trade: cargadoor, cargo, casco,
embargo, entereren, torpedo, orkaan, passaat, tornado, dubloen, ansjovis,
palaver(en), eldorado, conquistadores, patat (dial., aardappel).
- 80 years war: "real" Antwerpians (with the'right', erm, pedigree) are
called 'sinjoren' (from Sp. señor), amigo (dial. for prison, which seems to
be a Spanish translation of Brabantian vruunt, pronounced vrient, and then
borrowed in Dutch), masjoefel (<machochel? < Sp. muchacha?), schampavie (<
Sp. escampar?),
- Literature, science, games, politics:
commando, don, escapade, hidalgo, caballero, criticaster, canasta, omber,
guerillia, junta, -issimo.
- Age of discoveries/Continental plunderings (Spanish words, or words
entering Dutch via Spanish):
pampa, apaches, kannibaal, mesties, mulat, neger (hence negeren), cañon,
kano, ananas, avocado, cacao, cassave, chili, chocolade, coca, kina, kurk,
maïs, ...
- Some words entered Dutch via English, while English took them from
Spanish, (and Spanish in its turn often from other languages): alligator,
sherry (< Sp. Jerez), ...
Others became popular via American Westerns: desperado, lasso, rodeo,
mustang, mustie, ranch, rancher, stampede, later macho, incomunicado,
cafetaria.
Groetjes,
Frank
----------
From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.10.22 (04) [E]
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Hi, Ingmar, folks!
There are also Dutch _wichelen_ ["WIx at l@] soothsay , _wichelarij_
["WIx at la:rEi] soothsaying/augury, and I was told that my
great-grandmother
knew how to look for things or water with her _wichelroede_ ["WIx at lrud@]
i.e. divining-rod. I think this was a catapult like, forked shaped piece
of
wood.
Maybe those _wichel_words are from the same root as _wikken/wikker_?
I wonder.
The activity is called "dowsing" in English (from the verb "to dowse"),
and
the instrument is a "dowsing rod" or a "divining rod." In German, the
instrument is a _Wünschelrute_, and the diviner or geomancer, the
"dowser,"
who uses it is a _Wünschelrutengänger_ or just _Rutengänger_
("rod-walker").
The derivation of "dowse" (first found in writing in 1691: "Not of the
nature of the deusing-rod, or virgula divina, able to discover mines of
gold
and silver.") appears to be unknown, also that of _Wünschel..._.
I vaguely remember hearing something like *_wichel-ruut_ ['vICl=ru:t] in
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) also. My automatic assumption is that this
means literally "willow rod," since in our dialects 'willow' is _wichel_
['vICl=].
Apparently, this word has undergone metathesis of /l/ and /g/; cf. Dutch
_wilg_ (< Middle Dutch _wilge_), Afrikaans _wilgerboom_ and English
_willow_
(< Old English _weli?_; cf. Frisian _wylch_, _wil(l)ig_). Old Saxon has
_wilgia_, and Middle Saxon and a few archaic Modern dialects have _wilge_.
So, _wilge_ developed into _wigel_ and then into (/wigl/) _wichel_
(considering that syllable-final /g/ is fricativized, as in Frisian).
What is the word for "willow" in *your* dialect?
I'm not categorically saying that _wichelroede_ (and the possibly derived
verb _wichelen_) has anything to do with willows. However, I am tempted to
consider this as a possibility, given that dowsers tend to prefer rods cut
from willows, the "water-seeking" trees.
Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
Hi,
"Wilg" in Flemish is "wulge".
Kopwulge(V) = knotwilg (D)
Wikken(V) = afwegen(D) = to balance (E)
Wikken/Wikkelen(V) = heen en weer bewegen (D) = to move there and back (E)
wikkelen (D) = to wrap(E)
't Is gene wikkle (V) = It isn't witchcraft to be able to do this.
groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene
----------
From: John Nelson <onlinelearning2 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.10.26 (02) [E]
As Ron Reinhard said: "Like the greeting 'Moin!', it
has been spreading eastward."
"Moin" is also an extremely common greeting in
southern Denmark (sonderjydsk dialect).
Regards,
John Nelson
----------
From: John Nelson <onlinelearning2 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.10.26 (02) [E]
As Ron Reinhard said: "Like the greeting 'Moin!', it
has been spreading eastward."
"Moin" is also an extremely common greeting in
southern Denmark (sonderjydsk dialect).
Regards,
John Nelson
----------
From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.10.26 (02) [E]
Ron wrote:
> I would not be too surprised if it turned out a Dutch loanword, like for
> instance (_zoetje_ >) _suutje_ 'slow, easy and gently' (perhaps ultimately
a
> calque of French _doucement_ 'sweetly' > 'gently'?)
Well, "zoetjes" comes from "zoet", which means "sweet" and also seems to
have the same etymological root as "sweet", Swedish "söt", and probably also
German "süß". I don't see a likely connection to French "doux".
By the way (I don't know if I'm mixing subjects here, but I wouldn't know
where else to mention this), I am in the process of buying (keep your
fingers crossed!) an old post-and-beam (Fachwerk) farmhouse with a few acres
of pastureland near the small town of Uslar in Southern Lower Saxony, very
close to the area where I was born and spent my first 13 years (and was
first exposed to Platt). This is next to the Solling, an extensive wooded
and hilly area (and nature preserve) just east of the river Weser - very
rural and secluded, but then, as a free-lance translator, I have no need to
live close to a big city.
The local flavour of Lower Saxon seems to be still very much alive in the
area (also because almost nobody moves there from the outside, because there
are virtually no jobs to be had). For example, a local garden which is open
to visitors bears a sign saying "Kumm rinn" ("Come in"); several other signs
around the town were in Platt, not German. We also saw several books and
publications in Sollinger Platt in a bookstore windows, and I know of
several other books from the area that are written in Platt.
So, next spring, after 32 years of "exile", I will finally be going home,
and hope to be able then to contribute more about the local dialect and
language use.
Gabriele Kahn
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology
Gabriele:
> Ron wrote:
> > I would not be too surprised if it turned out a Dutch loanword, like for
> > instance (_zoetje_ >) _suutje_ 'slow, easy and gently' (perhaps
ultimately
> a
> > calque of French _doucement_ 'sweetly' > 'gently'?)
>
> Well, "zoetjes" comes from "zoet", which means "sweet" and also seems to
> have the same etymological root as "sweet", Swedish "söt", and probably
also
> German "süß". I don't see a likely connection to French "doux".
French _doux_/_douce_:
Principal Translations:
douce sweet
douce smooth
Additional Translations:
douce cushy
douce easy
douce fresh
douce gentle
douce mild
douce mild-mannered
douce soft
douce sweet-tempered
> doucement 'sweetly', 'mildly', 'gently', etc.
Dutch _zoet_ 'sweet'
> _zoetjes_ ['zu:tj at s] 'gently', 'nice and easy', 'gingerly'
Lowlands Saxon (Low German):
> _suutje_ ['zu:tje] 'gently', 'nice and easy', 'gingerly'
vs. native _söyt_ (<sööt>, <seut>) [zœ.It] ~ [zO.It] 'sweet'
There is no word *_suut_ *[zu:t] in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), which leads
me to assume that _suutje_ ['zu:tje] is a Dutch loan.
Furthermore, as far as I know, Dutch _zoet_ by itself means 'sweet' but not
'soft' or 'gentle', which is why I have a hunch that Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) _suutje_ is a Dutch loan where the donor word itself is a calque
(i.e., loan translation) from French:
French >> (West Flemish >?) Dutch >> Lowlands Saxon
deucement >> zoetjes > suutje
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
P.S.:
> By the way (I don't know if I'm mixing subjects here, but I wouldn't know
> where else to mention this), I am in the process of buying (keep your
> fingers crossed!) an old post-and-beam (Fachwerk)
"Half-timbered"?
> farmhouse with a few acres
> of pastureland near the small town of Uslar in Southern Lower Saxony, very
> close to the area where I was born and spent my first 13 years (and was
> first exposed to Platt).
Sounds wonderful and exciting, and I hope you'll get it. Best of luck! Is
it large enough for all of us (close to 450 now) to gather there and have
informal informational teach-in pyjama parties sometime, plus a closet or
alcove large enough to serve as the mandatory peanut gallery? Or would you
usher us off onto the hayloft _by dey müys' un rotten_?
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