LL-L "Etymology" 2005.08.02 (01) [E]
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Tue Aug 2 15:10:38 UTC 2005
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L O W L A N D S - L * 02.AUG.2005 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.08.01 (03) [E/German/Spanish]
Alright, an indication then, instead of a prove. It might be folk-
etymology (I don't know the proper E word for that), native *smooth and
*balto-slavonic *sme~tana etc melted together into Schmand (Schmant).
Ingmar
>Ingmar, you wrote above:
>
>> Spelling with final -d would be a prove for a Germanic heritage, from
>> *smanth or so, because in German and Low Saxon <th> as in *smanth is
>> always <d>.
>
>Whoa! "Prove" looks like too strong a word here. Words get respelled all
>the time, usually in the process of nativization, thus using native
>analogies. In both German and Low Saxon _-and_ is way more common than
>_-ant_ in native words. So, initial _s(ch)mant_ could have very well been
>changed to _s(ch)mand_. Given the orthographic ambivalence we discussed,
>some sort of change must have been involved.
----------
From: Mari Sarv <mari at haldjas.folklore.ee>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.08.01 (03) [E/German/Spanish]
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Tere, Mari! Great to hear from you again. You wrote (above):
>
> > In North Estonian dialects there is a well-known word "mant" meaning
> > 'cream' :)
>
> Interesting! Don't you think it's a Low Saxon loan (one of a gezillion)?
> Deletion of initial /s/ before another consonant would be consistent with
> Finnic loan adaptation (at least in earlier times). I can't find a
> Finnish
> cognate, which may be another indicator. Apparently, Finnish uses either
> Russian-loaned _smetana_ (a recent loan give the initial consonant
> cluster)
> or native _vuolukerma_ (_kerma_ 'cream', another loan, assumedly a Swedish
> one, cf. Estonian _kreem_, beside _koor_ > _hapukoor_ 'sour cream'). Or
> do
> you think it's an ancient Slavonic loan?
It sounds really as a LS loan, but n is palatalised, which could
possibly refer to "i" in the preform (but doesn't have to)?
> About Estonian _koor_: it's a very interesting Low Saxon loan in that it
> has
> experienced a semantic shift. In Low Saxon, _kaarn(e)_ (<Kaarn(e)> ~
> <Koorn(e)>) ~ _karn(e)_ (<Karn(e)>) denotes 'butter churn' (English
> "churn"
> being related) and in extension 'butter vat'.
Do you think it is LS loan? This word sounds too common in estonian, we
have "koor" also on trees, on bread etc.
> I assume it's related to
> words for 'mill', 'grinder', 'churn' e.g., Scots _kirn_ ~ kern_, Dutch
> _karn_, German (dial.) _Kirn_, Swedish _kvarn_ ~ _kärna_ (> Finnish
> _kirnu_), Danish _kværn_ ~ _kjærne_, Norwegian _kvern_, Icelandic _kvörn_,
> (Old English *_ci(e)rn_ >) _cyrin_. So in Estonian the Germanic word for
> "churn" came to denote 'cream' and 'butter fat'. Interesting among
> numerous
> derivations: _koorekann_ (< LS _kan_ <Kann> 'can') 'cream pitcher',
> 'creamer', _koorepulber_ (< LS _pulver_?) 'powdered cream', '(coffee)
> creamer'.
Besides, we have common dialectal word "kirn", "koorekirn" (alike Finnish
kirnu).
But right now i'm going to fieldworks in Setumaa, away from internet :)
Mari Sarv
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Hello again, Mari!
> > About Estonian _koor_: it's a very interesting Low Saxon loan in that it
> > has
> > experienced a semantic shift. In Low Saxon, _kaarn(e)_ (<Kaarn(e)> ~
> > <Koorn(e)>) ~ _karn(e)_ (<Karn(e)>) denotes 'butter churn' (English
> > "churn"
> > being related) and in extension 'butter vat'.
> Do you think it is LS loan? This word sounds too common in estonian, we
> have "koor" also on trees, on bread etc.
Might it be possible that we are talking about three homophone words, one
native and one a loan? Hmm ... but maybe not, now that I come to think
about it. Besides 'cream', _koor_ also means 'crust', 'peal', 'skin',
'rind', and also, as a loan, 'choir'. The question is if the ideas of
'skin' and 'cream' (rising to the top) are related. Note that Finnish has
_kuori_ for 'crust', 'peal', 'skin', 'rind', but does not use the same word
for cream (which is the loan _kerma_ = Est. _kreema_). Similar in Karelian
(_kuori_), Veps (_kor'_) and Votic (_koori_ vs _slifka_ < Russian).
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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