LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.03 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.03 (02) [E]


It's actually a way to determine whether someone here speaks it natively or 
not ;) When I'm trying to speak Br. it's hard to keep this up all the time, 
so sometimes/otren you'll hear "normal" a's.
Whereas all the short vowels are "one place higher" in the vowel triangle, 
in comparison to St. D., the long vowels are "one place lower" in general, 
that's why I transcribed "long" oe as oo, ling ie as ee, ee and oo as ei and 
ou (=[E.] and [O.] with a little trace of diphthongisation possible in the 
end) in my wren version. But these 2 big changes make it quite hard to 
write, either you choose it phonetically or more Dutch based (but then 
loosing much of the sound specialities, although it makes reading easier). 
Has given me quite some headache already ;)
I'm not 100% sure on the e = [I] though. I know that theoretically this 
should be the one we find here, but it sounds quite [E] to me... just a bit 
"vettiger" in sound. I don't know the [I]very well (as we pronounce i [i] 
and e [E] in our Standard Antwerpian Dutch) so you might be right anyway. 
I'll research it better ;)
The [i], [u] etcetera are also the normal vowels in Norwegian iirc. My 
Norwegian coursebook says you must pronounce short Norsk u as the vowel in 
fuut. Which for me is [u.] but for you probably [u] :) Same for i.
[I] and [U] sound very awkward to people here, the standard pron. of e, o, a 
are nowadays very widely spread though (the Antw. pron. sounds very 
uneducated and even offending). For the long vowels, most people know their 
quality in Antw. but youth barely used it. For my job I came in Schoten 
"Schoeëte" today, and in café I heard alot of all these vowels though. Café 
is a good source for hearing decent dialect ;)
Here in Zandvliet this whole "vowel shift" has not occured, not for the long 
ones anyway. The short ones seem to lie between St. D. and Antw. qualities. 
But this is all very difficult to identify.

Diederik Masure

>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
>Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.08.02 (05) [E]
>
>Didi, very interesting you bring this up.
>This <ä> for Dutch short <a> is typically for Antwerp, isn't it?
>I notice it in the Antwerpian accent - also when people speak Dutch
>instead of Brabantian- all the time.
>
>There is a kind of schedule to be made in the way vowels in the
>Antwerp
>prono of Dutch differs from the Standard:
>
>SD  - A
>[a] - [ä]      kat    [kat] - [kät]
>[E] - [I]      bed    [bEt] - [bIt]
>[I] - [i]      kind   [kInt]- [kint]
>[Y] - [y]      rug    [rYx] - [ryC]
>[i] - [i:]     wieg   [v\ix]- [wi:C]
>[u] - [u:]     voet   [f\ut]- [vu:t]
>
>Or, want I am beginning to believe more and more lately:
>
>Standard Dutch (SD) has actually <kind> =[kent] and <rug> =[r2x]
>instead of
>[kInt] and [rYx]. That would explain the difference we hear between
>German
>short i and ü, Dutchies hear German Kind = "kient" [kint], and
>Rück
>= "ruuk" [ryk], not as [kInt] and [rYk], and "kient" and "ruuk" are
>even
>written like that in "Dutch spelling" in German language guides for
>travellers.
>
>I think SAMPA has [}] or [{] for this, I'm sure Ron knows the right
>one.
>
>Ingmar
>
>Diederik Masure:
>>The only one I knew/use myself is "aai is mè z' gat in de bouter
>>gevalle",
>>[a.i is mE s@ gæt in de bOt at r g at væl@] but my SAMPA sucks and I
>>don't know
>>its representative for the æ-sound from English...

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.02 (08) [E]


Maybe a late PS to my former post:
this might be the reason why we say that West Flemings pronounce bidden as 
bedden and geluk as helök... or have the v. in W Fl been lowered also (in 
comparison to St. Du.), making the difference even bigger? Don't know their 
ipa/sampa transcription...

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