LL-L "Resources" 2005.08.17 (09) [E]

Wed Aug 17 23:07:57 UTC 2005

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 17.AUG.2005 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.08.17 (08) [E/LS]

Hi Ron,
> I'm sure there's a compromise somewhere.
I hope so. We have spent quite a lot of hours on debating the quality of the
list.
>
> Even if we leave the issue of orthography aside, Heiko is quite right in
> saying that a number of the listed items (not all, I must stress) go 
> beyond
> unconventional.
My wish is
1) That the conventional vocabulary (I am talking of vocabulary, not 
spelling,
here!!) needs to go first. If nds.wiktionary.org is supposed to become one 
of
the major (or even the major) resource on the internet about Low Saxon
vocabulary, then the conventional data must be included. However weirdo
vocabulary should be avoided or at least be flagged as such. Otherwise the
public perception of the LS wiktionary would be devastating.

> When I browse through Sabine's list I definitely come across gross
> orthographic insufficiencies and inconsistencies *in any system*.
> It was
> mostly that which I had in mind when I said that I did not consider the
> entire list "crap," that it could be used as a base, given a good
> working-over for orthographic consistency.
Yes, the list needs to be worked over and I am very willing to do so. In 
fact
that work is in progress.

> All of this presumes that all parties agree that the list be edited -- and
> it is indeed this that I had presumed all along, not knowing the history 
> of
> this affair.  It would be difficult or impossible for most people to
> endorse the list if it remained unedited.  My hope is that something can 
> be
> worked out.
Here a clear word from Sabine would be needed. From what I understand from
various private and public discussions, my perception of her point of view 
is
that all data (e.g. that data that she uploaded on the Italian wiktionary) 
is
supposed to remain. I however say that entries that cannot be substantiated
have to go.

> It's really important that we work *with* each other rather than *against*
> each other, that we crawl out of the battle trenches, sit down and talk on
> a give-and-take basis.  After all, we're all in the same boat and are
> looking out for the same shore.
That is very important to me, too. I just have the impression quite often 
that
the other side does not listen to me. (Maybe they think so about me, too.)

> Heiko:
> > There is certainly room in the wiktionary for lots of spellings as long
> > as they are flagged properly.
>
> I feel very much encouraged by those words, Heiko -- and I don't even have
> in mind "weirdo" spelling, just phonemically consistent spelling at least
> as alternatives, such as:
>
> (1) beden, bäden, biäden (to beg, to pray) [underlying: /beeden/]
> (2) beden, bäiden, bejden, beiden, baiden (to offer) [underlying: 
> /beiden/]
>
> (1) Paal, Pool, Pol, Pål (pod) [underlying: /paal/]
> (2) Pool, Pol, Poul, Paal, Paul (pole) [underlying: /poul/]
>
> As I have told you in private correspondence, I would expect a reference
> work to represent a given language optimally, i.e., phonemically correct,,
> bearing in mind that an encyclopedia also caters to the learners of that
> language.
Well, for the wikipedia (encyclopedia) I still do think that Sass is a good
way to go, because (e.g. concerning "veel" vs. "vääl" or "över" vs. "oever")
this is the usual way that I have found in lots and lots of books that I 
have
had a look at. (By the way, Ron, have you read Harry Potter in the LS
translation by Nissen and Cyriacs, it is really nice.) I have searched for
the different spellings on the Internet for a while and there, too, the
Sass-way is dominant. My estimation is >95% of the pages that I have seen.
And so far I have not seen any book in Low Saxon personally that writes
"vääl".

I do however share your concern about pronunciation and the wiktionary is
definitely a place to give different spellings and even in the Sass-variant
(that I prefer) it is certainly important to indicate the correct
pronunciation in the explanation of the words. (That BTW is a point where I
am not sure about the data structure, which has to be in a certain way so
that the data can then later be imported into the upcoming multilingual
"ultimate wiktionary".

I think we should have
1) Sass (veel)
2) your "enhanced Sass" (I do not know a name for that): vääl
3) maybe even your ANS, if you like to.
4) Lindow (where it differs from Sass in the representation of "a/o" before
"r" like in Oort vs. Aart)
5) maybe even others
As long as they are flagged accordingly.

What I just do not want to see is weirdo stuff without any substantiation
about the underlying system.

> Hopefully, we'll all have a group hug in the end.
I do hope so, too.

> There is no "I" in "TEAMWORK".
That's right. But I have read an article somewhere on the net indicating 
that
it does contain "M" and "E".

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks, Heiko.

I can assure you that spelling of the sort <vääl> (also <viäl> etc. in 
Westphalian) is quite common.  So far I have served on two literature prize 
juries, pouring through manuscript after manuscript, and saw it more than 
occasionally, also in published hard-copy works.  You really should not only 
go by online publications alone, because they represent a smaller, not 
necessarily average group of writers.  However, there too it is used quite 
often, as you will find further down.

Also, the authors of the New Sass have made a point of using alternative <ä> 
variants as well as <oe> variants in parentheses after the "whittled-down" 
spelling wherever a word contains a monophthong of the sort.  Similarly, the 
German-LS dictionary published in Bremen indicates this, however they use 
<e>-ogonek instead of <ä> and <ö>-ogonek instead of <œ> or <oe>.  Using 
<e>-ogonek and <ö>-ogonek to distinguish monophthongs from diphthongs has 
been common practice in academic circles and in better grammars and 
textbooks, and this for decades, championed by Sass himself, and previously 
indicated by different means by Wisser (in the 19th century).  So we are not 
talking about newfangled lunatic-edge ideas here.

Since <ä> looks weird to many people and they find the ogonek even more 
outlandish (and we *are* dealing with a largely arch-conservative and less 
than open-minded section of the population), besides the fact that the 
latter is typographically very inconvenient, especially underneath <ö>, many 
people omit the differentiation altogether, which is fine among proficient 
speakers but is not advisable in texts learners are likely to use.

To tell you the truth, I am not fond of any of the above, and that is really 
no secret.  Nor am I married to AS, which is more of an auxiliary and an 
exercise to prove a point (but I'm afraid it shuts more minds than it opens, 
mostly in the form of kneejerk reactions).  One reason I do not favor an 
entirely German-based system is because it snubs our 1-2 million 
Saxon-speaking relatives in the Eastern Netherlands, and I happen to 
advocate unification of the language rather that perpetuation and 
aggrevation of the fragmentation (typified by locally based myopia) that is 
likely to be the main cause for the demise of the language.  However, no 
matter what graphic system comes out on top, the least I expect is that it 
represents the language in a phonologically sound and consistent manner, 
most especially in reference sources.

> 2) your "enhanced Sass"

It sure ain't mine.

> And so far I have not seen any book in Low Saxon personally that writes
> "vääl".

Keep looking!  Here a couple of examples online:
http://www.w-kniep.de/Autor/stroep/index.htm
http://www.reinhard-niemann.de/lese.htm
http://www.barnstorfer-speeldeel.de/html/so_lopp_dat.html
http://www.schouwer-online.de/abitreff/maibaum77.htm
http://www.12b2.de/gunter_mardt.html
http://www.kbv-torsholt.de/Index_6Kloot.html
http://www.mps.mpg.de/de/projekte/rosetta/cosac/index_pd.html
http://www-pluto.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~geo/Besondere_Projekte/platt/spegel5.html
http://www.ewetel.net/~heinz-gerd.freese/platt.htm
http://www.heimatbund-gestorf.de/heimatbund/einladung.shtml?einladungen/20051028.html
http://www.kraemer-forst.de/download/vfzkrie1.pdf
http://www.janmaat.de/hollaend.htm
http://www.fehrsgilde.de/blaetter/bfg25.pdf
http://www.nwz-online.de/nwz/journal_journal_snacken_un_verstahn.php
http://www.kbv-torsholt.de/Index_5AusderAnfangszeit.html
http://www1.ndr.de/ndr_pages_std/0,2570,OID356902,00.html
http://www.ammerland-frauenab60.de/angebotezwahn.htm
http://www.bhv-ev.de/juni04.pdf
http://www.barnstorfer-speeldeel.de/
http://www.de-spieker.de/rundbreef05.htm

And the list goes on and on and on -- only looking for _vääl_, mind you, not 
looking for other commonly used words, such as _bäten_, _wäät_, _läsen_, 
_wäsen_, _wään_, _säten_, _vergäten_ ...

So please don't tell me it's rare!

Hold vast ... er ... Hool fast, Heiko!  Don't lose sight of the goal, but 
don't forget to ask for directions along the way!

Best wishes!
Reinhard/Ron

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
====================================================================== 