LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.26 (04) [E]

Fri Aug 26 18:37:03 UTC 2005

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08,25 (03) [E

I am personally less than overjoyed at the growth of English as a world
language,
even if it does make travel easier in some respects.  Whereas the Germans
have
German and the Dutch have Dutch, and the Swedes have Swedish, everyone
owns English,
and we (the English that is) have no real identifying language.  That's
why I am
keen on the strengthening of local dialects, and even their formalisation
like some
of the other lowlands languages we discuss here.

Paul

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08,25 (03) [E

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>I am now firmly convinced,
however, that a third form of English is now a firm
rival.<

Don't forget the English of the Sub-Continent. One of the main languages of
India, they are of course making it their own.

re EuroEnglish: we had confirmation of this some years ago when a former
Modern Languages Inspector, now an Member of the European Parliament,
described in a talk at a conference how very different from Standard
English was the English used by non-natives to communicate with each other
on the corridors of Brussels and Strasbourg.

Heather

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From: CrÃostÃ³ir Ã“ Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08,25 (03) [E

Our Cllr Parsley wrote about Euro-English:
"Secondly, I am a long way out of the loop. Perhaps this has been
discussed before?
Indeed, perhaps, in the last 5-10 years, there have been many studies on
it that I
have missed?"

It was discussed on the list before, about six months ago. We came to the
same
conclusions as yourself, but noted that Euro English contains a significant
vocabulary of its own, derived from French and other languages, primarily
related to
aspects of work of the European Commission and European Union (e.g., acqui
communitaire).

Go raibh maith agat,

CriostÃ³ir.

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From: "David Winterburn" <david.winterburn at steinmuller.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" [E

This will surely become the de facto official language
of Europe - which leads to an interesting question: is
that to the UK's and Ireland's (and even America's)
advantage, or not?

Best wishes,
Ian P.

I believe anywhere that the English language is showing growth whatever the
form will be to the advantage of the English speaking world especially the
British Isles and the USA. Looking at English spoken in the main countries
of the English speaking world ie US, Canada, Britain, NZ, Australia and
South Africa the divergence is minimal compared to some of the other major
languages such as French and Portuguese in the old/new world  and especially
compared to the Germanic and latin dialects of the major languages in Europe
and even compared to the differing forms of English in the UK.

This lack of divergence is amazing when you consider the fact that the
English spoken by the Pilgrims who went to America in the early 1600's was
quite different to now and even as late as the late 19th century the English
language was somewhat different to now. The English changed in the old and
new world in parallel but cross fertilisation kept the changes small.It has
been said that the difference between old and new world English was greater
in 1900 than now and there is further convergence taking place.

There is a standard reply in South Africa from Pommies(British) there; if
asked why after many years they still can't speak Afrikaans; the answer is
that they are still learning the English.
One Englishman on arriving in South Africa looked at a bilingual sign at the
airport which said DANGER! - GEVAAR! and went around asking everybody what
type of animal was a "GEVAAR".

Its not so much that the language is different but it is totally standard
(even though it has unique slang terms) and it is strange to watch some
Englishman battling to speak proper English but nevertheless trying hard so
everbody can understand him.

One can only ponder what effect there would have been on the world if
English in Britain & North America  had diverged to the extent of say for
instance Standard Dutch and Afrikaans.

Dave Winterburn

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08,25 (03) [E

Maybe Euro-English is the de facto language of this list, too ;-)
Ingmar
>
>Ian James Parsley wrote:
> a third form of English is now a firm rival
>what I shall call >'Euro-English', the variety adopted at all kinds of
>social levels - by no means exclusively administrative
>- by people from different linguistic backgrounds
>whose competence in English is fluent, but not truly native.
>
>This will surely become the de facto official language
>of Europe - which leads to an interesting question: is
>that to the UK's and Ireland's (and even America's)
>advantage, or not?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Heather (above):

> Don't forget the English of the Sub-Continent.

Well, yes, we *were* talking about Europe.  ;-)

> One of the main languages of
> India, they are of course making it their own.

And that's only one example.  Others of this type include Singaporean and
Malaysian English (la!), Sri Lankan English, Hong Kong English, Papua New
Guinea English, the two Samoan Englishes, Argentinean English, Gibraltar
English, Malta English, Cypriot English, Israeli English, and a good
number of African varieties besides those of South Africa.  In addition,
there are numerous English varieties of indigenous peoples of what are now
primarily English-speaking countries, varieties of which many are fairly
different from mainstream English varieties of the respective countries,
and these are now the first languages of large percentages of those
populations.

Personally, I don't believe that the spread of English can be halted; it
is far too far underway by now.  I can relate to the mixed feelings about
this (as expressed above by Paul) on the part of British people and others
that have a sense of ownership.  The only thing I can suggest is to
cultivate their local varieties and keep them separate from the evolving
national and international varieties.

Furthermore, I believe that Euro-English is going to be only a little blip
on the radar.  Europeans are far too closely connected with non-Europeans
and are influenced by their English varieties for Europeans to cultivate a
separate European English.  The trend on the Internet is toward World
Language, and European English can at best be a subvariety of that.

Since a universal lingua franca is needed now more than ever, and English
has definitely taken on that role, has even become fairly neutralized,
internationalized and culturally adaptable for that purpose, I think it is
realistic to accept this while at the same time counteracting universal
monolingualization by cultivating native varieties.  I can foresee a
situation in which everyone will need to acquire World English as a second
(or third ...) language, and this includes native speakers of various
English varieties.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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