LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.05 (02) [E]
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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L O W L A N D S - L * 05 December 2005 * Volume 02
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.04 (03) [E]
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> The only remaining question in this specific context is if a given
> shift must take all these steps or if it can skip any (i.e., if a
> shift can go directly from /k/, /t/ or /p/ to [?] or if it must go
> step by step). In Chinese, as I had demonstrated, /k/, /t/ and /p/
> all became [?] and in many dialects disappeared altogether. In
> Estuary English of Southeastern England, and in many other English and
> Scots dialects of Britain, /t/ is realized as a glottal stop, not so
> /k/. We could see that as evidence of direct shift, perhaps a shift
> of "convenience": easier pronunciation and clearer distinction between
> /T/ and /t/ -- a backward shift in any case.
Note that in some Scots dialects both /t/ and /k/ are realised as
glottal stops, but I don't know about /p/.
/t/ isn't replaced by a glottal stop in all positions. I worked out the
rule for /t/ -> [?] in Scots a few years ago when I was studying
phonology. Phew! Looking back at my notes I see I need to brush up on it
all again! But the rule I worked out was:
"[t] is replaced with [?] when it follows a sonorant. In many dialects
this doesn't happen at the start of a stressed syllable."
Sonorants are /l/, /r/, /n/, /m/, /N/ and vowels.
Examples:
<hotel> [ho'?El] or [ho'tEl]
<bottle> ['bo?=l]
<tatties> ['tQ:?Iz]
<want> [wQ:n?]
<saft> [sa:ft]
Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/
----------
From: Karl Schulte <kschulte01 at alamosapcs.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.04 (09) [E]
This silly sounding "upspeak" has infected USA, beginning from the West
Coast (airborne from Australia?) and is heard in use by "yuppie marketing
folks, usually female and younger (<40). It is annoying as it conveys false
information in speech (it signals a question, when a declaritive statement
is intended.
Karl Schulte (of Emden, via Texas)
----------
From: jverhoeven <jverhoeven at xtra.co.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.04 (09) [E]
>>From Joyce Verhoeven
jverhoeven at xtra.conz
> Subject: Phonology
Ron wrote
didn't quite know what I was talking about or needed
> me to kindle their awareness, at which point those that did not use it
> themselves would say things like "Yeah, can be kind of annoying. Right?"
> (In other words, something annoyed them about some people's speech, but
> they hadn't quite been able to put their fingers onto what exactly it was
> until someone explained it.) I was under the impression that it was found
> more on the east coast than on the west coast, that in Western Australia
> it was associated mostly with feminine style at the time. Perhaps it has
> spread since then. Does anyone know? (We have West Australians on the
> List. If they are too shy to unlurk themselves they could write to me
> privately and I will pass it on anonymized.)
a quick step out of lurkdom for me,to comment on this the rising
intonation at the end of a sentence
is always associated with the New Zealand accent in my experience,
Australians apparently used to
comment on it, maybe it has spread with New Zealanders moving to
Australia.(very uninformed guess)
Joyce
----------
From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L Phonology
Hi Ron
As regards boredom factor, I was of course referring
to the subject matter - you of course made a
thoroughly boring subject (to the majority) positively
thrilling, so that I, and I'm sure most other
Lowlanders, was on the edge of my seat the whole time
I was reading it and wanted to immediately write back!
(Obviously there's no irony intended here at all - I
am afterall British and such traits are foreign to
us). ;)
You said
"Are you trying to tell us then that these varieties
use glottalized
stops,
as for instance in numerous American and Caucasian
languages (areally
including Indo-European Armenian)? Then again, those
are, strictly
speaking, "glottalic egressive." So you may be right.
When I pronounce
final unreleased stops (e.g., in Malay/Indonesian and
Cantonese) I do
indeed
glottalize them -- but only because they are
unreleased, while I don't
glottalize final stops when I release them. So I
suspect that what you
described may have something to do with the unreleased
feature as well.
What do you think? What's the difference? They seem
the same to me ..."
I'm pretty sure it's like this: When a voiceless stop
is followed by a consonant then it is definitely
glottalised, eg. 'captain' is [kæ{?p}tsIn ~
kæ{?p}thIn] (here the {?p} should have a tie over the
top instead of brackets and the ts/th should be with a
superscripted s/h), or 'backdate' [bæ{?k}dæi?], in
this position they are non-released - as I said with t
the tongue movement is dropped so we get 'Gatwick'
[gæ?wI?k].
I think what's involved when there is a final
voiceless stop followed by a pause or vowel is that a
glottal stop is added, however there is a certain
amount of overlap, so that the following voiceless
stop is initially glottalised, but there is release in
Southern British at least (well in my own English and
I think I'm fairly typical for the area) - especially
in careful speech, such that 'back' is [bæ?kx ~ bæ?kh
~ bæ?k] or 'bat' [bæ? ~ bæ?ts ~ bæ?th], (the x,s and h
again superscripted). So maybe here it's safer to
speak of pre-glottalising than actual glottalisation.
But the general voicelessness reinforcing with the
glottal stop is still there. It's why vowels are
shorter and less tense before voiceless consonants
than before voiced ones, because they're cut off in
their prime by the glottal stop before they have a
chance to reach their maximum potential.
Ok, I admit it now, apart from you Ron (that is if
_you're_ still awake), I think the majority of people
on the list found this fairly boring and skipped it.
So seeing as it's probably just the two of us that
have got this far - how are you, Ron? Everything
alright in California? ;)
Gary
http://hometown.aol.com/taylor16471/myhomepage/index.html
----------
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.04 (05) [E]
Woa, thanks Reinhard - I don't know your Hawai'i name, probl. the
translation of 'hard reign' or 'hard rain' ? ;-)
What would that be in Proto-Polynesian: Taulanatetaane? Taulanasetaane?
Saulanatetaane? About "Ingmar", I suppose it's the North Germanic
equivalent of Theofamus (if that is a name.
But personally I prefer to be a male sweetheart over my fame with the Gods
Kaula
Reinhard/Ron P.S.ed:
>Here's your Hawaiian name, Ingmar ("(God) Ing's fame"): Kaulanakekāne
>("famed is Taane (the Polynesian main deity)," also meaning '(male)
>sweetheart' ;-) )
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology
Thanks bunches for the Scots info, Sandy. It comes in handy in that it
seems to fill in a few gaps here and there. (Don't listen to Gary! I knew
at least two other Lowlanders are following this thread.)
Moin, Karl! I believe this is your first posting, so here's your welcome.
I hope you'll be contributing some Emsland info along the way.
> This silly sounding "upspeak" has infected USA, beginning from the West
> Coast (airborne
> from Australia?) and is heard in use by "yuppie marketing folks, usually
> female and younger
> (<40). It is annoying as it conveys false information in speech (it
> signals a question, when a
> declaritive statement is intended.
Theory is that this is how it started, that it started with quasi question
mode (of the "isn't it?" type) to "soften" a statement (i.e., make it sound
less authoratitive) in women's language, stemming from those "good" old days
when this was seen as more becoming of women.
Hey, Joyce! How nice to see you unlurk yourself, if only briefly!
> a quick step out of lurkdom for me,to comment on this the rising
> intonation at the end of a sentence
> is always associated with the New Zealand accent in my experience,
> Australians apparently used to
> comment on it, maybe it has spread with New Zealanders moving to
> Australia.(very uninformed guess)
Interesting! Well, if New Zealanders want to claim this I say they're
welcome to it. There sure are lots of New Zealanders (including Maoris) in
Australia (as far as in my stomping ground Western Australia).* As they
say, "Some of my best friends are Kiwis." So perhaps they've been
surreptitiously introducing their peculiar ways.
*(I take it the free -- i.e., low-bureaucracy -- mutual migration agreement
between Oz and NZ is still in place. I certainly hope so.)
All right, Gary ... You don't appease me with interesting after-the-fact
details. You're trying to save the day now, because you clearly read
between my lines "No Hawaiian name for *you*!" (with the tone and face of
the Food Nazi in the Seinfeld show but with a Hawaiian accent).
Kahlifohneeyah? Well, it's in the hands of Ahnollt de Governator and his
Buabm. What else can I say?
So I hear you say that the English varieties in question do indeed have
glottalized consonants as found in the Caucasus and in the American Pacific
Northwest.
And Ingmar ... aren't *you* the insatiable one? Here I go and give you a
nice Hawaiian name, and what do you demand? The proto form! This requires
me to change into my sexy-looking pareo (loincloth), saddle my outrigger and
traverse the Polynesian Triangle in search of consonants, and all that just
to please my demanding little makamaka ...
I believe it's *Taurankatetāne (*Tauranka te Tāne, or *Tauranga te Tāne).
> About "Ingmar", I suppose it's the North Germanic
> equivalent of Theofamus (if that is a name.
Tsk, tsk ... a Greco-Roman compound? Would that be either Latin *Deofamus
or Greek
*Theodiasimos, *Theophamistos, *Theophaidimos?
> Woa, thanks Reinhard - I don't know your Hawai'i name, probl. the
> translation of 'hard reign' or 'hard rain' ? ;-)
Trying to imply stuff? Behave, and pay attention!
> ** Lainahaku < laina (verse), haku (master, lord)
> (he declares modestly ...)
("'I am the Lord of the Verse,' says he" ... (like Michael Flatley,
self-declared "best dancer of all times," in Lord of the Dance) ... or was
it Hakupōnalonalo, Lord of the Flies?)
Lainahaku is based on Germanic Raginhart ("able counsel") and Hebrew Ron
("song," "ode," "poetry"), literally "Lord's verse."
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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