LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.16 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

16 December 2005 * Volume 04
=======================================================================

From: Justin Renquist <justinrenquist at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.15 (02) [E]


This may also be regional dialect? I would still argue that it's directly 
related to the unvoiced consontant following, and an attempt to make the 
combination easier to pronounce in quick speech.

I more or less use a voiced v in all these examples, but maybe that's 
because "haff" is a llittle pet peeve of mine :> A lot of people did this 
where I grew up in southeastern Michigan, and it really annoyed me. The 
other pet peeve is people using "of" in writing to say something like "I 
would've" (i.e., writing "I would of") - while I feel it's perfectly 
acceptable English to pronounce I would/should/could've this way, writing it 
with of is simply poor spelling...

Not to change the subject, but I do find it interesting the topic of v vs f 
since Dutch has similar issues with v's being pronounced unvoiced in certain 
situations. What I'd really like to figure out (being a non-native speaker 
of Dutch) is how to pronounce "v" correctly at the beginning of a word. For 
example "vrouw" - I think in careful ABN or "Hoog Nederlands," it would be 
preferable to have a voiced v (not too different from a voiced English v), 
but I think in everyday Dutch (and perhaps Flemish) speech, the voiced v 
sound is fading. When I was in Holland last year (mainly in Amsterdam) for a 
few weeks, I always heard "fijf" for 5 and never "vvvvijf". Pronunciation of 
IJ is whole other subject - I heard wildly different things - some very 
similar to what sounded almost like German "ei" combination (but slightly 
dipthonguized)!! Heb je fEIf Euro? I almost laughed when hearing this for 
some reason?

My former wonderful Dutch teacher here in Seattle, Jacqueline, (hi 
Jacqueline!) speaks what I feel is beautiful "Hoog Hollands," and she does 
use voiced v's - but am I right in thinking that this can be related to 
level of education? The higher the education level and family upbringing, 
social standing (in addition to regional issues), the more voiced the 
initial v's in Dutch?I think I recall her explaining it this way to me. I 
haven't ever heard voiced v's in spoken Dutch when in Holland (but I think 
more so when I lived in Belgium actually) or when I listen to TV/radio 
Dutch.

Good discussion! I love this list (despite being a lurker the vast majority 
of the time, due to being more of an amateur/hack than many of the rest of 
you!)

justin

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Hey, Justin!

> Good discussion! I love this list (despite being a lurker the vast 
> majority
> of the time, due to being more of an amateur/hack than many of the rest
> of you!)

Please try not to hide your light under a bushel!  Besides, we really mean 
it when we say that there's room for all of us and that no one is to be 
judged or treated on the basis of their "expertise" or lack thereof.

So, do us a favor and use the speakers' corner whenever you feel like it.

Good to have you on the List!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================