LL-L "Language use" 2005.07.19 (04) [E]

Tue Jul 19 23:12:02 UTC 2005

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L O W L A N D S - L * 19.JUL.2005 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.07.17 (04) [E]

First post after my 3 weeks in south France :)
(without hearing any Occitan - not that I expected to hear it often anyway.)
OOT - my grandfather, born in Nice, once taught me a song in the language, 
it was something like "cayo bello cayo untastu ni, cayo bello cayo untastu 
ni, lavara la rivièra lu lun d'ün rive" etc etc I don't remember alot 
anymore but anyone got information on it? It's difficult to find it out 
because I don't know the exact words anymore + don't know the spelling of 
the language either...

And Mr. Hellinckx is very right here, a week ago my father said "if I want 
to hear my mothertongue (i.e. the Antw. dialect) nowadays I should go to 
Morocco!" (I resisted accusing him of not teaching us then, because he talks 
a very annoying Standard Dutch to me and my siblings which makes no sense)
But it's true, the best dialect speakers here are immigrants, if you exclude 
elderly people, but for their age they are... These days it's more important 
in which neighbourhood you grow up than what your ethnic origin is. We had 
an internet technicus from Maghrebian origin here a while ago and he 
addressed me in "Plat Aantwaareps" but, indoctrinated as I am/was I answered 
in normal Dutch (how impolite to address strangers in dialect! at least 
we're being taught such in school) + as my dialect is very poor and not 
genuine I fear talking to people who really speak it. It's easier to talk it 
to people whose knowledge is far less than mine ;)

The neighbourhoods.
As said these are the most important factor, the guys from my class that 
live(d) in Borgerhout know the best dialect still, apart from the few other 
people whose families still have a dialect tradition.
These are mainly the neighbourhoods of poorer people, where the original 
pop. didn't change to some form closer to St. Dutch yet. Then the immigrants 
came, poor, so they went to live there, and "hijacked" the dialect, now many 
"white" people don't want to be associated with the dialect (= marginal and 
Morrocan people)

As how people here feel when a stranger addresses them in dialect: I think 
the above would play a big role. Eventhough it's unwanted, even I feel 
uncomforable when someone does. Because we're trained to do so. There's 
always the voice in the back of our heads that tells "what an uneducated 
marginal guy", maybe for native speakers that live in those neighbourhoods 
it's just the other way round, they maybe think I'm a snobbistic Hollandic 
speaking jerk or so...

Diederik Masure

>From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
>Subject: Language use
>
>Beste Paul,
>
>>Paul wrote:
>>
>>>Perhaps speakers of various non-mainstream Lowlands dialects can
>>>help
>>>me.
>>>How do you feel about foreigners attempting the tongue (as opposed
>>>to, for
>>>example, speaking standard German or Dutch)?
>>
>
>Mmm...tricky question, I think. The first reaction of many people
>will
>be one of bewilderment...followed by pride (aha, he is definitely on
>his
>way to become one of ours :-) ). Personally I find it very
>charming...I
>get the same feeling, hearing a baby or a very young child speak
>dialect...something I had not expected...something that disarms me
>completely :-) . I don't think any native speaker will fear having
>lost
>some privacy...secrecy never being much of an issue in Brabantish
>(this
>is no thieves' Latin).
>
>Then...second thoughts spring up...
>
>The reaction may also have something to do with your (perceived)
>status.
>During the years we regularly had professional Australian cyclists
>who
>started living in Belgium. Whenever I hear these chaps speak Dutch I
>can't resist thinking how well they speak it. What makes their
>speech
>even more agreeable is the fact that very often you will "hear" the
>local colour. Surely because among cyclists quite a lot of dialect
>is
>still heard. As an aside, these "Australians" are usually pretty
>good
>cyclists, so they can be seen regularly on tv...and as you (may)
>know,
>cycling is still big in Belgium, so their linguistic abilities sure
>exude the notion of "success".
>
>However...
>
>It's not only about what you say...the way you say it also plays a
>role.
>Let me give you an example that deals with second or
>third-generation
>migrants living in Antwerp. According to a scientific article that I
>read in "Taal en Tongval", some of those youngsters mock their
>classmates/teachers when they speak the local dialect. Here's the
>abstract (whole article is almost 30 pages long):
>
>"In spite of the dominant stereotypes about Moroccan boys in
>Flanders as
>unwilling or incompetent speakers of Dutch, recent
>school-ethnographic
>research indicates that not only are their linguistic repertoires
>abundantly multilingual, but these boys also display a lively and
>varied
>Dutch competence which among other things points out that these boys
>are
>unmistakably integrated into Flemish society. On a daily basis,
>Moroccan
>boys could be observed using several Dutch varieties such as Antwerp
>dialect, Standard Dutch and learner Dutch. This mostly playful
>practice
>appeared to be inspired by what these boys called doing ridiculous
>or
>counteracting, which generally involved 'having fun while not being
>all
>too deferent'. Antwerp dialect was a major resource for doing
>ridiculous
>as it helped project playful and burlesque caricatures of angry
>Belgians
>at precisely those moments when sanctioning or evaluation was in the
>air, while it also supported undeferential and non-ironic remarks
>that
>constructed a certain assertiveness in the face of authority.
>Styling
>Antwerp dialect in this fashion thus emerged as one of the ways in
>which
>Moroccan boys shaped and negotiated their participation at school,
>or as
>how they explored the boundaries of self-initiated action in
>situations
>that promised little more than a marginal influence on the flow of
>things."
>
>I know it may not be entirely appropriate to quote this article
>here, as
>it concerns primarily Moroccan boys, and mind you, they are no
>foreigners in this country; but still it provides some insight into
>how
>people that have been raised in a mixed environment can (ab)use
>their
>knowledge of the local tongue. I dare not speculate how this is
>viewed
>by local teachers, but being a teacher myself too, I found it very
>interesting. By the way, my school is located in Brussels, hence the
>linguistic background is utterly different and cannot be compared.
>
>Kind greetings,
>
>Luc Hellinckx

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