LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.27 (04) [E]
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Wed Jul 27 15:25:56 UTC 2005
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.26 (07) [E]
"But a proper "z" is common."
What is the status of the palatalization of s near other consonants like p?
How far north would one still here "schterk" for "sterk?"
Ben
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.26 (07) [E]
Dear Lowlanders,
Actually the border between the Low Saxon dialects and Central-Franconian
dialects (Middle German) is in parts very sharp, it is only in the Rhinland
and around Berlin where it is difused but it is very sharp between
Westphalian and Hessian. I remember the inhabitants of Westphalian-speaking
Istha to the north of Kassel telling me that they cannot understand the
inhabitants of the village of Balhorn just 5 km to the south of it which
indeed is already Middle German-Hessian speaking. This is also reflected in
the traditional housebuilding, Istha had, what they called locally, "Saxon"
houses while Balhorn already had Franconian ones, the old border between the
Saxon empire and the Franconian empire was still obvious. So it depends
where you are whether the the linguistic border is sharp or difused. In my
childhood I used to live in Kaarst-Buettgen in the Lower Rhine area for a
while. Buettgen was a village just to the north of the Benrath Line, it had
"ut" for out, "buk" for belly but "salz" for salt, "holz" for wood etc. It
had a transitional Limburgian dialect and the further North-West you go the
more Lowlandic the dialects became but there were exceptions to the rule,
the city-dialect of M.-Glabbeek (Moenchengladbach) resembled in many ways
more "Koelsch" (the dialect of the city of Cologne) than the dialects of the
surrounding villages, possibly the city-inhabitants found it more
prestigious and sophisticated to copy habits of the great city of Cologne
which is still in many ways the cultural centre of the Rhinland region,
including the Lower Rhine area. The Cologne-dialect is already quite
influenced by Middle-Franconian and is defenitely south of the Benrath-Line.
Old documents of the city of Nuys (Neuss) also confirm that the Limburgian
speech of the area used to be a lot more Lowlandic but that has changed in
the last 300-400 years, probably due to the influence of Cologne.
Groeten
Helge
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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L Language Varieties
Hi all,
Ron asked: By the way, those of you who know German (including second
language
learners), can you understand Missingsch when we write it?
Yes, I understood most of it. Possibly because I've heard it spoken by
friends (Freese)
who were originally from Bremen. German is my third tongue and I still speak
it daily with
my children's paternal German grandmother who arrived in South Africa in
1953 from
Offenburg, Baden. She occasionally talks Schw?bisch which I'm familiar with.
Cheerio,
Elsie Zinsser
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From: Rudi Vari <rudi at its.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.07.26 (01) [E/LS/Missingsch]
Reinhard wrote:
> By the way, those of you who know German (including second language
> learners), can you understand Missingsch when we write it?
Probably around 80-90%. I do find it necessary to vocalise the words (at
least in my mind), and the sound picture helps with understanding.
Especially difficult are the vowels with diacritical signs. The rules
that apply seem to be German, but the multiple vowels (diphtongs and/or
thiphtongs?) do not appear to be German at all. What I think might help
in my case, is my knowledge of Dutch and Afrikaans.
Kind regards from a longtime lurker
Rudi Vari
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Hi, Ben!
You wrote (above):
> What is the status of the palatalization of s near other consonants like
> p?
> How far north would one still here "schterk" for "sterk?"
In Low Saxon that would be "stark" versus "schtark." (LS tends to have
_erC_ where Dutch has _erC_; e.g., _kark_ versus _kerk_ 'church'.)
The distribution of the feature you are talking about is rather complex
these days. Earlier, you could roughly say that it was a southern and
eastern feature, southern in closer proximity to German and eastern probably
because the east was colonized by people from all over. North Saxon, the
largest dialect group (covering all of Schleswig-Holstein, Hamburg and
Bremen as well as most of Lower Saxony), has always been associated with the
English-, Dutch- and Scandinavian-type _st-_ and _sp-_ pronunciation, but
within this group there are some pockets of _scht-_ and _schp-_ dialects.
Nowadays, it is less simple, is a mixed bag, in part because of migration
and in part because of German interference (especially electronic media
influences). You need to bear in mind that it used to be quite common for
northern dialects of German, not only Missingsch, to have the _st-_ and
_sp-_ pronunciation. (Southerners would be amused by Northerners that
_STolpern über'n SPitzen STein_ 'stumple over a pointed stone/rock'.) It
was/is still predominant among the parents of the post-war generation, and
within the post-war generation especially speakers outside the larger cities
grew up using it and later in life came to be converted to the "proper"
German pronuncition. So, in earlier times there used to be far less German
interference regarding this feature.
Good to hear from you again, Helge, and thanks for the interesting piece
(above). Concurrence of Saxon linguistic boundaries and Saxon-type
architecture (and also of the crossed horse-head symbol on top of gables)
are very interesting to me. I have a map of it somewhere and remember
vaguely that concurrence is also fairly pronounced in parts of the Eastern
Netherlands.
Thanks for responding to my question about comprehension level of
Missingsch, everyone. I'm particularly happy that it unlurked our Rudi.
(I'll have to try some more of that.)
I realize that the phonetic detail embedded in the German-based spelling may
make things a bit more difficult. It is indeed meant to be sounded out. At
the anniversary site (http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/) we provide two
orthographic versions, one with more and one with less detail.
Our Afrikaans speakers may have noticed a familiar feature: /d/ assimilating
to preceding /n/ even across word boundaries, as in _in die_ -> _innie_.
This is a Low Saxon feature. It also applies after some other consonants as
well; e.g., _lass das_ -> _lassas_ (standard _lass(e) das_, _lass(e) es_),
_nehm das_ -> _nehmas_ (standard _nimm das_, nimm es_), _geb das_ -> _gebas_
(standard _gib das_, _gib es_).
In the above examples, two other feature are apparent.
(1) No formal separation of _das_ and _es_, as in many North Saxon dialects
(_dat_). _Das_ stands for either.
(2) Unlike in mainstream German, imperative forms equal roots, as in Low
Saxon; hence _nehm!_ (standard _nimm!_ 'take!', _nehmen_ 'to take'), _geb!_
(standard _gib!_, _geben_ 'to give'), _ess!_ (standard _iss!_ 'eat!',
_essen_ 'to eat'); cf. LS _neem!_ < _nemen_, _geev!_ < _geven_, _eet!_ <
_eten_ respectively.
Karl-Heinz, I mentioned Slavonic influences on Low Saxon. I should also
mention Scandinavian influences on the northern dialects (and even more so
on the North Frisian varieties). These are most pronounced in the general
area of the Danish-German border, and I believe they are mostly South Jutish
influences. (I guess they would be even stronger among the dialects north
of the border had those survived Denmarks "kindly smothering.") So, Low
Saxon did not only influence Scandinavian, but it worked the other way
around too. I believe there are some Danish influences also on LS dialects
farther south in Schleswig-Holstein, since most of the area was
intermittently under Danish rule. In parts of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania
you can also find traces of Swedish lexical influences going back to Swedish
rule over the area.
Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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