LL-L "Language classification" 2005.06.12 (02) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUN.2005 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: language classification

I'm not a linguist, I'm an engineer, and I am regularly confused by language
classification. I often think it all has more to do with politics than with
science.

In Belgium the language limit between Romance and Germanic varieties is an
easy one. For language censi in the past, where Belgians had to choose
between Dutch, French and German it was apparently difficult to choose
between Dutch and German for some municipalities. For the Limburgish
speaking Sippenaken in 1930 one third opted for Dutch, one third for German
and a slightly larger third for French. So Sippenaken became
administratively French speaking. People talking dialects in a language
continuum, with more than one standardized variety, may have difficulties in
choosing the right one.

For the West Germanic languages I find quite some contradiction.

I just compare the classification by Geerts with the classification by
Janssens-Marynissen.

A. The classification by Geerts.

Geerst is (or was?) professor in linguistics at Leuven university. Leuven
university is not a bogus university I think (after all I studied there for
engineer). Geerts is not stupid either I think, since the 1994 spelling
commission bears his name.

In "Voorlopers en varianten van het Nederlands", 1975; he gives p. 19

Westgermaans

1 Anglo-Fries
1.1 Engels
1.2 Fries

2 Kontinentaal Germaans

2.1 Opperduits (Hoogduits)
2.1.1 Beiers
2.1.2 Opperfrankisch

2.2 Middelduits ([also] Hoogduits)
2.2.1 Saksisch
2.2.2 Middelfrankisch

2.3 Nederduits
2.3.1 Nedersaksisch Nederduits (Platduits)
2.3.2 Nederfrankisch
2.3.2.1 Oostnederfrankisch
2.3.2.2 Westnederfrankisch - Nederlands

Comments:
Frisian is the only continental language grouped together with Anglo-Saxon
by Geerts.

B.   Guy Janssens (professor linguistics in Liège and in Praag-Karlova) &
Ann Marynissen (professor linguitics in Köln)  in "Het Nederlands van Nu",
2005, tweede uitgave, gives, p. 71:

Oer-West Germaans

1 Ingweoons Oudwest Germaans
1.1 Angelsaksische dialecten
1.2 Oudfriese dialecten
1.3 Oudsaksische dialecten
1.3.1 Nederduits en Noordoostelijke dialecten
1.4 Ingweoons kustdialect
1.4.1 Hollands, Zeeuws
1.4.2. Vlaams

2. Continentaal Oudwest Germaans
2.1 Oudnederfrankische dialecten
2.1.1 West
2.1.1.1 Vlaams
2.1.1.2 Brabants, Utrechts
2.1.2 Oost
2.1.2.1 Limburgs, Rijnlands

Comments:

Vlaams is listed twice.

Utrechts, Brabants, Limburgs are classified as continental [and eventually
need to be banned from the lowland list, as to this classification?].

Confusing isn't it?

>>From time to time one sees language correlations in publications.
Has this ever been done with Low German?
Is it something like 0.8 correlated with Scots and 0.2 with High German
Or 0.2 with Scots and 0.8 with High German?

Do kids in the North of Germany eventually lean:
Scots in 1 year and German in 5 years or vice versa.

I don't think this all has to do with the right of Low Saxon speakers for
defending their language.

But it has to do with trials to base this defense on scientific arguments,
where in a "language continuum" (not as clear a border line as with romance
and Germanic dialects) the transition is gradual and one can always find
examples pro and contra. So this risks to open (emotional) debates.

Keeping distance from High German is not only a reflex by Low-German
defenders.
One sees also defenders of Luxembourgish considering association of their
language with English.
Cf. http://www.igd-leo.lu/igd-leo/linguistics/letzeb.pdf

Regards,

Roger

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: language classification - addendum

Original Message -----
From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
To: <lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET>
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 12:20 PM
Subject: language classification
> B.   Guy Janssens (professor linguistics in Liège and in Praag-Karlova) &
> Ann Marynissen (professor linguitics in Köln)  in "Het Nederlands van Nu",
> 2005, tweede uitgave, gives, p. 71:

I forgot
2.2 Oudhoogduitse dialecten
in:

> 2. Continentaal Oudwest Germaans
> 2.1 Oudnederfrankische dialecten
> 2.1.1 West
> 2.1.1.1 Vlaams
> 2.1.1.2 Brabants, Utrechts
> 2.1.2 Oost
> 2.1.2.1 Limburgs, Rijnlands
2.2 Oudhoogduitse dialecten

Regards,
Roger

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