LL-L "Language use" 2005.06.13 (05) [E/German/Portuguese/Spanish]

Mon Jun 13 23:22:48 UTC 2005

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.06.12 (04) [E]

Thomas, du hast unbedingt recht, natürlich sollten die Spanisch-
sprachichen in New York mindestens ein Wenig Englisch lehren,
wenn sie dort arbeiten und wohnen, das ist doch ganz normal.
Aber was das mit den Qualitäten der spanischen Sprache zu tun hat,
das verstehe ich auch nicht. Vielleicht hat es mehr zu tun mit den
Qualitäten der Spanisch-sprechenden über den du redetest, oder mit
deinem Verdruss das sie dich nicht verstehen.
Verständlich, sondern nicht so... tja, freundlich?

Ingmar

Tom Byro schrieb:
>
>On the other hand, I am puzzled by the persistence of Spanish here in
>the northern tip of Manhattan.  I don't know if it is an unwillingness
>or an inability to learn English on the part of the Spanish speakers.
>Perhaps there are qualities to the Spanish language that I am not
>aware of.  I tend to be skeptical of the existence of such qualities
>since I have never heard of a world class, philosopher, mathematician,
>chemist, physicist, etc., emerging from the Spanish speaking world.
>What brings this to mind is an experience my sons and I had with a
>taxi cab yesterday.  I told the cab driver where we had to go and
>there was no comprehension.  My younger son then sighed and told the
>driver in Spanish where we wanted to go.  Then there was no more
>difficulty.  No doubt life would be easier if I learned Spanish but I
>have refused to do so.  When the Spanish speakers en masse start to
>learn German, then I will learn their language.

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.06.13 (02) [E]

At 09:39 AM 06/13/05 -0700, Steve wrote:

>Yikes! Well, I'll just mention a few names from the world of philosophy
>alone. You may have heard of them sometime during your life:
>
>Maimonides (1135 - 1204)
>Jose Ortega y Gasset (1883 - 1955)
>Baltasar Gracian (1601 - 1658)
>
>I could go on listing "world class" (whatever that is supposed to mean)
>chemists, physicists, etc., from the Spanish-speaking world. I'm not sure
>if
>your intent here is to purposely raise ire of your Spanish-speaking fellow
>Lowlanders or not, but I find your cultural arrogance somewhat offensive.

I could say (in jest), "well, what do you expect from a German", but this
would only add fuel to the fire.

Ed Alexander

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From: Marsha Wilson <NanaMarsha at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.06.13 (02) [E]

I'll see your "yikes" and raise you an "egads - somebody better tell the
Federal government"....see below for a quote from the SACNAS website:

"On May 16, 2005, the White House announced that the Society for Advancement
of Chicanos and Native Americans in Science (SACNAS) is among the recipients
of the 2004 Presidential Award for Excellence in Science, Mathematics and
Engineering Mentoring (PAESMEM), a program supported and administered by the
National Science Foundation (NSF). PAESMEM press release. "

I'm neither Spanish speaking nor do I descend from Spanish speakers, but was
likewise dismayed at Tom's statement, especially found on in a group that
encourages diversity of the most minute degree.

Marsha
/scratching head in wonder - maybe we misunderstood?

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From: jean duvivier <duvassoc at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.06.13 (02) [E]

With respect to the comments about Spanish philosophers, etc..those comments
display an appalling level of ignorance. Without belaboring the point made
by Steve, quite correctly, the 16th century writers like Cervantes, Calderon
and  others were way ahead of English writers and playrights of the time. In
fact they also were very influential in the development of the French
classicals Corneille and Racine.
In technology , let's mention the inventor of the autogyro, precursor of
helicopters, Juan de la Cierva.
One of the difficulties faced by English speakers is that not very nuch of
Spanish litterature and technology has been translated, and of that, the
schools don't mention them if at all.
By the way, I consider Spanish to be one of the two or three loveliest
languages of the western world, and I know 4 of them

Jean

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From: Ulpi Á lvarez <email at ulpialvarez.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.06.13 (02) [E]

> From: Steven A Avey <saavey at ra.rockwell.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.06.12 (04) [E]
>
> Tom wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, I am puzzled by the persistence of Spanish here in
>> the northern tip of Manhattan.  I don't know if it is an unwillingness
>> or an inability to learn English on the part of the Spanish speakers.
>> Perhaps there are qualities to the Spanish language that I am not
>> aware of.  I tend to be skeptical of the existence of such qualities
>> since I have never heard of a world class, philosopher, mathematician,
>> chemist, physicist, etc., emerging from the Spanish speaking world....<
>
> Yikes! Well, I'll just mention a few names from the world of philosophy
> alone. You may have heard of them sometime during your life:
>
> Maimonides (1135 - 1204)
> Jose Ortega y Gasset (1883 - 1955)
> Baltasar Gracian (1601 - 1658)
>
> I could go on listing "world class" (whatever that is supposed to mean)
> chemists, physicists, etc., from the Spanish-speaking world. I'm not sure
> if
> your intent here is to purposely raise ire of your Spanish-speaking fellow
> Lowlanders or not, but I find your cultural arrogance somewhat offensive.
>
> Steve

Cheers Steve.

First of all I'd like to point out that there are far more natives in
Spanish capable of holding up a conversation in another tongue (maybe not
just English) than English natives with skills in other languages (and
please, don't try to make me believe knowing how to say 'una cerveza, por
favor' equals fluency :-p). English suffices to communicate with anyone,
anywhere so why bother and learn another tongue?

The Latino community in the US keeps growing and many of them arrive with a
poor educational (and sometimes social) background, looking for a better
life, but their community is large enough to allow them to carry on their
lives without ever having the need to become bilingual in English. To me
that indicates a much bigger problem with integration, but this is not the
place to talk about that.

And finally, Spain (or what is now known as Spain) is as old as Europe and
Spanish as old as English. Add to that all what the Spanish-speaking America
has ever offered to the World. I'm sure it must have been something. Some
history reading might do you good.

By the way (now that my wounded national pride is healed :-p) I'd like to
ask something that's always intrigued me: why do citizens of the USA keep
the name 'America' for themselves whenever referring to their country? What
I was taught as a kid is that America is a whole continent, stretching from
Alaska to Patagonia. Has anybody ever traced back the origin of this usage
for 'America'?

Regards/Groeten/Saludos,

Ulpi Alvarez

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From: Jarley Jr. <jarleyjr at yahoo.com.br>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.06.13 (02) [E]

Spanish language is not only the language of a lot of philosophers,
poets,etc - it is the language in which were written the most fine
literature of the world. Just to mention: is one of the languages of Josep
Fontana, one of the most important historians, still writing and teaching...
of Gabriel Garcia Marquez (Nobel Prize); of the great Jose luis Borges, not
just to mention Miguel de Cervantes (Don Quixote), Horacio quiroga, Julio
Cortazar, Carlos Fuentes...
We could make a list of dozens of writers. We can't forget that spanish is
the  first language of more than 15 countries...
And just not to forget, is the language of the most important philosopher
still alive: Fernando Savater.
PS: I know a lot of spanish, but I am a portuguese speaker, so I wouldn't
write all  of this if I didn't really think this way... I am not  defending
my  native language, as mine is the language of Camões and Saramago, not
spanish.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

¡Hola!, Ulpi! ¡Bienvenidos a la minoría "audible" del foro! Estoy encantado
que usted ha sido atraído de la cortina, aunque este no sea la mejor
circunstancia.

E olá, caro amigo Jarley! É muito bonito "vê-lo" novamente. (Há lá alguma
notícia sobre a aldeia pomerana no Brasil do Sul?)

OK, folks, before we lambaste our Thomas even more, let's remember that his
way of thinking is not one of a small minority. It appears to be based on
the idea that people who maintain their minority languages and do not
quickly enough learn the majority language of the land do so because they
are arrogant, prefer their "brought-in" language because they consider it
superior. Furthermore, it appears to be based on the premise that the value
of a language depends upon fame bestowed upon it by world-famous figures.
Though both of them are fallacies, they are commonly held.

In the history of immigration to the United States there have always been
larger or smaller, longer- or shorter-lived non-English-speaking
communities. Until the early 19th century, German-, Yiddish-, Polish- and
Italian-speaking communities were so visible and audible in the Eastern and
Midwestern US that the general population perceived them as being obstinate
misfits, even dangerous to the "American way of life." In other areas the
same applied to whatever communities were most visible there, such as Amish
people in Pennsylvania and Ohio, and Low Saxon (Low German) speakers in
Iowa, Illinois and Wisconsin. It has been a recurring theme since. More
recently, it has been speakers of Russian, Chinese, Korean, Hmong,
Vietnamese, Khmer, Lao, Amharic and Tigrinya. Horror stories about "Russian"
taxi drivers abounded in the 1980s and 1990s, followed by stories about
"East Indian" and "African" drivers, reinforcing all manner of prejudice and
stereotypes.

Even among better educated immigrants (which is the majority, contrary to
common beliefs) many have to take jobs "Americans" do not want, such as the
arduous, dangerous and poorly paid job of a taxi driver, working more hours
than anyone can imagine. Many do so because they have no choice, having to
feed mouths and having to pay exorbitant rent for substandard, dismal
housing in depressing neighborhoods. It is hard for them to get jobs
otherwise, partly because of prejudices and partly because their English
does not improve fast enough. Improvement is usually slowed down by their
lack of time and energy to take courses and by their propensity toward
associating with speakers of their own language, *because* they are
linguistically handicapped, something that is not terribly easy to pull
yourself out of when all your time and energy goes into making just enough
money to cover the basics.

Generally speaking, Spanish in the US is just one of several prominent
languages besides English. However, many people regard it as special
because, if current trends continue, there is a chance (a slight chance, I
believe) of it taking over, because "Hispanic" births outnumber others, and
in many parts of the country Spanish has "semi-legitimacy" by virtue of
special administrative consideration. This is the main reason for the
"English Only" movement to keep chipping away at it. It is essentially an
anti-Hispanic movement that, in a country without an official language
policy, seeks to enshrine the supreme position of English in the event that
English becomes a minority language.

Spanish speaking citizens and residents of the US have been grossly
stereotyped for a long time, and this continues even in the supposedly
well-meaning public TV area. Most people associate with the Spanish language
illegal immigrants, maids and gardeners. In reality, most Spanish speakers
are citizens and legal residents, and they can be encountered in all areas
and on all socio-economic levels. Many of them, such as those of the
Southwest and Southeast, have families whose residence in the areas can be
traced back more generations than most "Gringo" families'; they lived there
long before the US conquered those areas from Spanish-speaking
administrations. Sure, most of them do speak English perfectly, but not all
of them do, especially those that live in predominantly Spanish-speaking
communities. It is written nowhere that you cannot be an "American" without
speaking English (although the INS acts as though there is – but then they
are in their own universe). If you get into a taxi and cannot communicate
with the driver, get out and hail another taxi! In the long run, these are
just small kinks along the way, and there is no need to jump to any
conclusions about the offending driver.  Who knows what his or her "problem"
is?  I'm pretty darn sure that arrogance it is not.

As far as I am concerned, the image of no language needs to be defended.
Even if a certain language had no writing, no recorded history and were used
only by three dumpster divers, I say, "More power to you!" to those that
maintain it, if for no other reason than they love it.  The value of a
language does not depend on how many famous people use(d) it and how many
"great" books have been written in it.  If so, why would we bother with some
of the language included in the Lowlands-L focus? There are far more
important aspects of language, as far as I am concerned, such as its
connection between oneself and one's family and culture of origin, the ease,
comfort and confidence it provides, especially in an alien world, the people
and songs it makes you remember …

And, hey!, so what if the United States did become predominantly
Spanish-speaking? I can think of many, many far "worse" things than that.

¡Viva la lengua castellana (española) y todas las otras lenguas y idiomas
del mundo!

Reinhard/Ron

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