LL-L "Pronomina" 2005.06.15 (09) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 15.JUN.2005 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Pronomina" 2005.06.15 (07) [E]

> From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Pronomina" 2005.05.15 (04) [E]
>
> For Sandy, re: use of thee and you
> I have not read enough Shakespeare to be sure. But it seems to me in
> this piece that whenever the Ceasar or the Queen addresses Anthony they
> use thee.
> When somebody else does it is you. It seems to be sort of a formal form
> of address in reverse. Is that possible? Even now some people use a more
> formal speech than others. Jacqueline

Why in reverse? Caeser and  Cleopatra are of higher social status than
Anthony so they address him as 'thou' and 'thee', others are of lower
social status than Anthony so they address him as 'you'. Thou and thee
are the familiar forms (compare 'du' in German), 'You' is the polite form.

Though there is a tendency for languages to opt for the familiar for all
when they reduce to one of the forms, you could say that English went
the opposite way and now treats everyone with equal politeness

David Barrow

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Pronomina" [E]

> From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Pronomina" 2005.05.15 (04) [E]
>
> For Sandy, re: use of thee and you
> I have not read enough Shakespeare to be sure. But it seems to me in
> this piece that whenever the Ceasar or the Queen addresses Anthony they
> use thee.
> When somebody else does it is you. It seems to be sort of a formal form
> of address in reverse. Is that possible? Even now some people use a more
> formal speech than others. Jacqueline

If you look at it again:

YOU must not stay here longer, YOUR dismission
Is come from Caesar; therefore hear it, Antony.
Where's Fulvia's process? Caesar's I would say? both?
Call in the messengers. As I am Egypt's queen,
THOU blushest, Antony; and that blood of THINE
Is Caesar's homager: else so THY cheek pays shame
When shrill-tongued Fulvia scolds. The messengers!

You see that she addresses Antony directly by name in the first two lines,
then again in the fifth and sixth lines. But in the first two lines she uses
the "you" forms consistently, and in the fifth and sixth the "thou" forms.
Cleopatra seems to change register and yet she's addressing Antony both
times.

Shakespeare even uses "you" when addressing the romantic heroine in his
sonnets, eg:

I see their antique pen would have expressed
Even such a beauty as YOU master now.
Then all their praises are but prophecies
Of this our time, all YOU prefiguring,
And, since they looked with but divining eyes,
They had not skill enough YOUR worth to sing...

This is slightly surprising since right up until Victorian times and beyond,
poets, especially the romantics, used "thou" forms to suggest intimacy,
antiquarianism, or suchlike.

Of course some fantasy writers still use "thou" forms to suggest antiquity
in their writings.

> From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Pronomina" 2005.05.15 (04) [E]
>
> >Of course, you mustn't forget that however English may be taught in
> >schools,
> >forms of "thee", "thy", "thou" are still used in some places in
> >England.
> >
> >Sandy
>
> If I might ask, about where and how widespread is the use of them
> nowadays?
> Any chance they will survive our generation?

I understand that they're still used in Lancashire, Yorkshire and the West
Country, if only by older, less educated or less pretentious individuals.
The BBC sitcom "Last of the Summer Wine", set in contemporary Yorkshire, has
always had some character or other who speaks this way. These forms are
"tha" ("thy" and I think sometimes "thou", eg "tha's" for "thou art") and
"thee" (thou, thee, I think).

Yes, there's a chance they'll survive our generation - I'm not a great fan
of trend analysis in linguistics!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================