LL-L "Orthography" 2005.03.14 (08) [E]

Tue Mar 15 06:05:18 UTC 2005

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L O W L A N D S - L * 14.MAR.2005 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: davidab at telefonica.net.pe <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.03.13 (02) [E]

> From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Orthography
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I have received a message in response to my web "treatise" about Low Saxon
> (Low German, http://www.sassisch.net/lowsax.htm), and am taking the
> liberty
> to respond to it via this forum, bcc'ing the person who wrote to me,
> because
> I think his words are quite to the point and of interest to more people.
>
> <quote>
> It is a great shame that there is not a more cohesive and organised
> movement
> in both Germany and The Netherlands to promote regularisation and
> standardisation of Low-Saxon orthography. This would naturally greatly
> assist the learning of the language's spelling, grammar, and its
> composition
> among schoolchildren in traditionally Low-Saxon-speaking areas. This in
> turn
> would help the development of serious literature in the language, which
> would necessarily reinforce the propagation of this great and greatly
> influential Germanic language. Culturally it would be an enormous loss to
> Germany, The Netherlands, and Europe generally if this language were to
> become extinct and forever lost.
> Paul Sweet steelmill64 at usa.net
> </quote>
>
> I could not agree more. However, unfortunately the obstacles are currently
> formidable and have deep roots.  I promise to be as brief in explaining
> them
> as I possibly can, since many people have heard me go on about it _ad
> nauseam_.
>
> The most important root problem is that the language community has been
> fragmented in various ways. It has been separated not only by political
> and
> thus artificial boundaries (i.e., the Netherlands-German border and
> numerous
> enclave communities throughout Eurasia and overseas) but also by several
> boundaries of the mind that are the direct result of a loss of
> psycho-ethnic
> separateness from the politically dominant ethno-national identities and
> century-long denial of any sort of separate language status.
>
> While, on the whole, Low Saxon speakers of the Netherlands, despite the
> usual regionally limited, parochial mindset, hold a general, underlying,
> though for understandable reasons cautious acceptance of the fact that
> their
> "dialect" is closely related to ("Prussian") _nederduits_ ~ _platduits_ of
> Germany and are aware that to be a Netherlander may be separate from one's
> local identity, the vast majority of speakers in Germany have come to be
> indoctrinated to believe that _Platt_ and its culture and identity
> constitute a subset of "German," despite recent official recognition of
> the
> language. Many of them, especially older ones (who have learned in their
> own
> lifetimes that rocking this type of boat can be extremely dangerous) have
> come to fear or even believe that setting _Platt_ apart from "German" and
> (re-)uniting it across a national boundary could be seen as an act of
> disloyalty, treason and secession ... thus would be _undeutsch_. I
> personally believe that this is in part due to the ambiguity of the term
> "German": it can denote a national identity (which includes minorities,
> such
> as Frisians, Sorbians and Roma, and in the future probably also Turks) as
> well as an ethnic identity, namely the German ethnicity into which
> Germany's
> (true) Saxon ethnicity has been forced ever since Charlemagne's
> destruction
> of Saxon independence.
>
> If the (Low-)Saxon-speaking community had remained ethnically separate it
> would now be much easier for the average person to conceive the notion
> that
> it exists in more than one country and that it has the right to coordinate
> its efforts across boundaries.  I am not suggesting that such a separate
> ethnic identity should or could be recreated. I am merely mentioning it as
> a
> root course for what I see as refusal or reluctance to embrace the Low
> Saxon
> community of the Netherlands as an integral part of an overall community,
> even though Europe is currently marching toward a place in which national
> boundaries will have far less meaning than in the past.
>
> Unfortunately, even most of the influential institutes and advocacy groups
> in Germany have not been able or willing to cross this mindset barrier. It
> may in part be due to things like territorial thinking, reluctance to part
> with traditional scholarship as well as fear of facing the orthography
> question in an international rather than a German context -- in other
> words,
> to think internationally rather than German, which would necessitate
> international collaboration and thus "watering down" one's own power, and
> which might also necessitate "disloyalty" regarding the demigod Sass and
> his
> German-based orthographic school. Suggestions of the likes of me and other
> "foreigners" and "disloyals" are thus easily and conveniently dismissed
> and
> ignored.
>
> In other words, orthographic reform and unification proposals, which also
> a
> number of Germans advocate, tend to meet with avoidance and rejection.
> When
> I point out the necessity to include speakers and writers on the
> Netherlands
> side of the border, the usual answers I get -- and usually I get no
> answer -- are "their dialects are so Hollandized that they become
> irrelevant
> to us" or "the Dutch are touchy when it comes to things like that"
> (obviously with reference to German occupation of the Netherlands,
> anti-German feelings and a need for especially Eastern Netherlanders to be
> seen as separate from the "Prussians"). However, my personal experiences
> with Low Saxon speakers and writers of the Netherlands have shown that the
> average person there is far more intelligent and openminded than that, and
> my efforts to include Netherlanders in my pan-Low-Saxon advocacy and
> activities has been, on the whole, far more successful than in Germany
> where
> prejudices and suspicion tend to be more entrenched.
>
> However, there are other stumbling blocks. All Low Saxon communities are
> dominated by the orthographically conservative, having a hard time letting
> go of adherence to Dutch versus German orthographic conventions.  In other
> words, they are unable or unwilling to "think outside the box."  Another
> major stumbling block is a culmination of misconceptions due to a lack of
> understanding of basic linguistic concepts. For example, there is this
> erroneous idea that "dialects" must be written "phonetically," which
> results
> in various dialects looking much more different from each other than they
> sound, thus creating orthographic barriers where there would be few
> barriers
> in mutual comprehension of the spoken language. Also, there is the
> ill-begotten idea that orthographic reform is the same as language reform,
> that "tinkering" with spelling will change the language, that it is the
> same
> as doing away with dialectal diversity and big-brother-type enforcement of
> an artificial standard language. The average person has a hard time
> understanding that orthographic unification is a separate issue, that all
> the dialects can still be written using a uniform system that would
> facilitate inter-dialectical comprehension.
>
> In summary, then, in my opinion orthographic unification cannot be
> implemented until minds have not been opened. To open minds it is
> important
> to remove unfounded fears, and to remove unfounded fears we need
> education.
> If the language will last that long is highly questionable. To survive, it
> needs orthographic and general unification.  And therein lies the
> conundrum,
> the vicious circle, so to speak.
>
> World-wide, orthography tends to be a semi-sacred calf which to touch and
> to
> alter will result in grumbling at the very best (as the recent Dutch and
> German reforms have shown, and as the failure of English spelling reforms
> keeps showing us). Add to this the above-mentioned mindset barriers, and
> you
> have a recipe for certain failure, I am afraid.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

I think it's a mistake to address reformed spellings at people who already
know
how to read and write. They should be introduced to new learners. Leave the
oldies to continue with the old spellings if they wish.

David Barrow

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From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Thanks, David.

Point well taken, but it tends to be the older people that have the power,
that are the gate keeper of publications ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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