LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.21 (11) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 21.MAY.2005 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.21 (06) [E]

Ron wrote:
> The way I understand her argument is that in her and most North Germans'
> realities Low Saxon and German always figure in tandem, that German cannot
> be disregarded in their lives because it dominates everything, and most
> people in her region understand both of them, thereby concluding that they
> are mutually intelligible.
>
> However, if we follow through with this we need to acknowledge that not
> German but Dutch, English, Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, etc. play such a
> role in the realities of Low Saxon speakers outside Germany (except in the
> case of most Mennonites who have taken German domination along in their
> diaspora).

No, no, that's not it (or not all of it). What I was trying to say was that
Lower Saxon and German are indeed so similar that many if not most things
can be translated on a one-to-one basis, and that most expressions have a
direct equivalent in the other language - just change a few vowels here and
there, and Bob's your uncle (I know this is slightly exaggerated, I'm just
trying to get the point across). To a certain extent, this could be said, of
course, for German and Dutch as well (although there are plenty of "false
friends" between those two). This is not at all like your example of Turks
who also speak German, or Germans from Russia - those languages are barely
compatible, after all. Actually, many people just consider Platt to be
German "pronounced the other way" (but then again, there are people who
think this of Dutch...>grin<).

And I disagree about "other" High German speakers not being able to read
Platt, at least (understanding it takes as much practice as it would to
understand Bavarian, Suebian or any other German dialect, which is not a
whole lot). But then, in Ron's new proposed standardised spelling, even I
can't read it (at least not at a glance)... and don't even want to try...
because I regard it as an artificial and rather unnecessary attempt to make
Lower Saxon look more different from German than it actually is.

Also, it basically reflects only one flavour of Platt, and I feel that the
many others are being neglected through the effort of establishing a
standard language. Again: see the discussion about Limburgs. I once posted a
sample of Platt from Hameln (in Southern Lower Saxony, on the Weser), which
is very different from the standardized form, as just one example of the
many, many different varieties - Küstenplatt, Heidjer-Platt, Meckelnbörger
Platt, Sollinger Platt being but a few, albeit very distinct examples.

As I said before, throughout Lower Saxony, you can hear people speak Platt
mixed into their High German at various degrees, on a sliding scale from 0
to 100%, and this may vary from day to day in the same person, depending on
their current preference, and who they are talking to. So, while most people
no longer speak undiluted Platt on a daily basis, this is their way of
keeping it alive, treating the two languages like conjoined twins (which
they are in many respects). This is probably no different between Scots and
English.

Mind you, I am not arguing to have German included in the list at this point
(this was Ron's decision, and if it were fully included now, after ten
years, structures would shift a lot, and the face of the list would change).
Still, I often feel that there is a big piece missing that would be needed
to complete the picture.

"With benevolent honesty as well as with tolerance and compassion, if not
even affection",
Gabriele Kahn

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language variety

Hi, Gabriele, Lowlanders!

> But then, in Ron's new proposed standardised spelling, even I
> can't read it (at least not at a glance)...

I'm pretty darn sure that's because of your mental approach (i.e.,
German-conditioned expectations).  The way it's spelled is very similar to
how Low Saxon was spelled before Germanization.  It is not an attempt to
make it look different, just to arrive at phonemic representation (yes, on
its own terms), which is where the German-based systems are deficient, this
being a reason for rampant mispronunciation among learners.

> What I was trying to say was that
> Lower Saxon and German are indeed so similar that many if not most things
> can be translated on a one-to-one basis, and that most expressions have a
> direct equivalent in the other language - just change a few vowels here
> and
> there, and Bob's your uncle (I know this is slightly exaggerated, I'm just
> trying to get the point across).

Which would explain the incredible, unfortunate spread of _Patentplatt_ in
Germany, a type of pseudo-Low-Saxon in which pretty much each word and each
sound is taken from German and transformed by means of a formula, often
resulting in weird if not comical formations.  By and large, this is a
different creature, though you might argue that it's within the alleged
range.  It is a watered-down, highly Germanized version that most old-timer
native speakers find anywhere between comical and sad, though most of them
are too polite to say so, just counting the blessings of people at least
trying and not wanting to discourage them.  I have even observed how genuine
native speakers "scaled down" their Low Saxon when conversing with such
deficient speakers, mostly by avoiding words and expressions that are not
like in German.  Wasn't it our Holger Weigelt who also wrote about this
happening in Eastern Friesland, proficient older speakers adapting to
deficient younger folks' pseudo-speak?

Just keep watching what for instance our Jonny writes in LS, and you'll see
that most of it can not be literally translated into German.

> Mind you, I am not arguing to have German included in the list at this
> point
> (this was Ron's decision, and if it were fully included now, after ten
> years, structures would shift a lot, and the face of the list would
> change).

Wrong.  It was a decision taken by the members of the List in the beginning.
Some of them are still with us and may be able to verify this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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