LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.10.01 (02) [E]

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.09.30 (07) [E]

Wow, Ingmar,

> Are you sure? We Dutch Low Saxon never pronounce the spelled -ven in those
> cases as [v=m], but as [b=m].
> It is hard to say [lE:v=m] instead of [lE:b=m], and IF the [v] were
> pronounced, it would be [lE:v=n], with [=n], not [=m].
> But I think I understand what you mean: in derived forms like <ik leev>
> it is [v] not *[b]; you probably mean that the Meckelnborger say <ik
> leeb>?

Du hesst Ougen as 'n Aar un' Oorn as 'n Luchs! Nipp un nau sou is dat ouk in
uns' Nourdkehdingschen/Hodelner Dialekt.

'Houchachtungsvull' Grötjes

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.09.30 (07) [E]

Yes, I know, but I was talking about -v- or -b- before -(e)n.
Is 'läven' really [lE:v=m] or rather [lE:b=m] or even [lE:=m:], as in most
of Dutch Low Saxon?
Only in some parts of the Achterhoek, -en is not always pronounced as a
sonorant nasal. In my hometown Winterswijk, -en is actually pronounced
[@n] often, and from people in other areas, i.e. Zutphen, one can hear
[@~], nasalized schwa. That is also the prono of many Low Saxon when
speaking Dutch, because the step to [@] with dropped n is too big for them
(us).

Ingmar

>I(ngmar) asked:
>
>> Are you sure? We Dutch Low Saxon never pronounce the spelled -ven in
those
>> cases as [v=m], but as [b=m].
>> It is hard to say [lE:v=m] instead of [lE:b=m], and IF the [v] were
>> pronounced, it would be [lE:v=n], with [=n], not [=m].
>> But I think I understand what you mean: in derived forms like <ik leev>
>> it is [v] not *[b]; you probably mean that the Meckelnborger say <ik
>> leeb>?
>
>I *am* sure.  In Mecklenburg and at the Lower Elbe it is consistently [b],
>also in words like _aber_ (= _aver_) 'but', _œber_ (= _œver_), _Kabel_ (=
>_Kavel_) 'cable', _strebig_ ~ _strävig_ (= _strevig_) 'steadfast(ly)',
>_langlebig_ ~ _langläbig_ (= _langlevig_ ~ _langlävig_) 'long-lived'.
>
>This rule applies only between two (underlying) vowels.  Thus, these
>dialects, too, have a fricative syllable-finally; e.g., _ik leev'_ ~ _ik
>leef_* 'I live', but _dat is langlebig_ 'It's long-lived'.
>
>* < _ik leve_; many of these dialects have lost superlength/drawl tone
>(_Sleeptoon_),
>thus devoice all finals.

So what was the Slavonic diminutive suffix in this case?
I only know -ek, -ka, -ko, but that is not -ing

Ingmar


I(ngmar) wrote:
>> Are you sure it is from Slavonic? I think this -ing diminutive exist in
>> Danish, too, like in <kærling> etc.
>
>How can I be a hundred percent sure?  However, my assumption tallies with
>that of the people that have written about it.  It is interesting, though,
>that this feature starts pretty much where there used to be predominantly
>Slavonic populations.  As I said, from Hamburg to Schwerin it's just a
good
>hour by car (though during the Cold War it felt like millions of miles
away,
>and, unlike people in Germany, I still haven't quite gotten used to the
idea
>that the Iron Curtain is gone, since we grew up assuming it would never
>happen).  And the _-ink_ ~ _-ing_ borderline lies somewhere in between,
>closer to Hamburg than to Schwerin, pretty much where before colonization
>Saxon and Slavonic settlements met and tentatively overlapped.
>
>> Manneken pronounced "mannekng" leads to "mannegng" => "manneng"
>> => "manning".
>
>Did this latter shift actually happen, or is it just your hypothesis?
>
>Anyway, Ingmar, it's nice to know that someone actually reads these
>overview feature descriptions with apparent interest.

It was my own theory; and I'm always interested in things written about
Low Saxon

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Ingmar:

> Yes, I know, but I was talking about -v- or -b- before -(e)n.
> Is 'läven' really [lE:v=m] or rather [lE:b=m] or even [lE:=m:], as in most
> of Dutch Low Saxon?

So you were asking about phonological rules, not about phonemes?  Well, yes, 
some people and dialects that otherwise have the _-v-_ feature say ["lE:b=m] 
or even ["lE:=m:], but many others don't (and I say ["le:v=m] 'to live' but 
["hEb=m] 'to have', thus distinguish /v/ and /b/ all the way: /leev-n/, 
/heb-n/).

By the way, I have notices that there are apparently personal variations 
even within supposedly one dialect, and one person may use both forms, 
depending on the register or occasion.  It's a bit like some people 
pronouncing _morning_ ["mOrnIn] in casual contexts but saying ["mOrnIN] in 
more formal contexts.  In Low Saxon, this can apply to contracted forms as 
well; e.g., ["ve:z=n] vs [ve:n] 'to be', or ["slQ:g=N] ~ ["slQ:G=N] vs 
[slQ:n] 'to beat', 'to hit' (cognate of "slay").

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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