LL-L "Etymology" 2005.10.01 (03) [A/D/E]

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.09.29 (05) [A/D/E]

Haai Jo:

Onderwerp: "Etymology"

> In het Nederlands blijkt gaps (handvol) ook te bestaan, eigenlijk de holle
> hand, eerst genoteerd bij Killiaan en verwant met gapen, d.i. openstaan
> (van
> Dale). Ginnegappen overigens ook, samengesteld uit ginniken en gabben
> (verwant met gapen) die beide spottend lachen betekenen.

Dankie vir u inset. Ek sou vermoed het AGN gebruik die einste woorde. Maar
ek veronderstel die woorde 'gap' en 'gaps' het 'n oorsprong heel ouer as
ieder tale.

Groete,
Mark

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From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: LL-L "Etymology"

> From: Ben J. Bloomgren <Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.09.29 (05) [A/D/E]
>
> Kevin and all, could gob be a reversal of a form like bok or boca from
> a
> Romance language, or is that just my mind groping in vain for a
> connection
> to Spanish, my second mother tongue?
> Ben

I don't know the answer to that, but as soon as I read your post I
immediately thought of something. The Polish word <gęb> is cognate with
other, similar Slavonic words (c.f. Russian губа guba 'lip'), but in
Polish itself means "trap, yap", i.e., a rude word for "mouth". I
suspect that 'gob' could be a direct borrowing from Polish, perhaps
originally Polish ethnic slang?  By the way, the genitive plural is
<gąb> which is pronounced very similarly to Eng. "gob", but with either
a nasal glide after the vowel or a simple "m" sound, depending on your
dialect.
It's clearly also used a lot in Polish idioms, which fits my ideal
scenario of it's borrowing: "Trzymaj gębę na kłódkę" - "Keep your trap
shut"; "być mocny w gębie" - "to have a big mouth", and most ideally,
"zamknij gębę" "Shut your yap!"
Does this sound plausible to all you lot? By the way, I assure you this
is not a borrowing the other way - as I mentioned, this word has a long
history in Slavonic languages.
All the best. Do widzenia!
- Ian

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.09.29 (02) [E]

Could I start off another etymological thread, please ?

How far across the lowland languages does 'black' appear instead of
'schwarz'?

Has 'schwarz' been retained with a change of meaning?

Has 'black' got more than one meaning?

Thanks

Heather

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Interesting twist with the Polish there, Ian!

Probably coincidental (or is it?):
Persian ﮔﭗ _gap_ 'chat', 'chatter', 'babble'

Here are some Low Saxon pot shots:

Gaap, Japp 'gap', 'large opening', '(big) mouth'
gabbeln 'to laugh in a silly way'*
Gabbel 'silly person'*
gabberig, gobberig 'silly', 'giddy'*

* related to English "gobble" (onomatopoetic of turkeys' sounds)?

Heather:

> Could I start off another etymological thread, please ?

I ab-so-lute-ly *insist* on it, anytime in fact (and not only because I like 
this thread).

I'll get it rolling:

> Has 'schwarz' been retained with a change of meaning?

In Low Saxon, _swart_ [sva:t] ~ _swatt_ (<swat>) [svat] basically means 
'black' and is the default word for it, but it can also mean 'dark', often 
like English "swarthy" ~ "swarty," thus also related to "swart" (OE 
_sweart_) whose original meaning, too, seems to have connoted 'dark' rather 
than 'black'.

> Has 'black' got more than one meaning?

In Low Saxon it does have a different, albeit related meaning from the 
English one.  It is used as a noun: _Black_ (<blak>) [blak] 'ink'.

This word seems to be fading away and is not longer used in quite a few 
dialects, as is the derivative _Blackputt_ ~ _Blackpott_ (_blakput_ ~ 
_blakpot_) ["blakpUt] ~ ["blakpOt] 'inkwell'.  _Dint(e)_ [dInt(e)] is now 
used more often for 'ink' (cognate of German _Tinte_ and English "tint"), as 
is the derivative _Dintenputt_ ~ _Dintenpott_ (_dintenput_ ~ _dintenpot_) 
["dInt=npUt] ~ ["dInt=npOt] 'inkwell'.  However, even in some dialects of 
the latter type, _blak_ remains in an idiomatic phrase describing gross 
foolishness: _X hett Black sapen_ ("X has drunk/gozzled ink") 'X is out of 
his/her mind', 'X is off his/her rocker', 'X is out to lunch'.

Old English has _blæc_ and _blac_, Old German _blah_ and _blach-_.  Old 
Saxon has _blak_ and the derivative _blakhorn_ 'inkwell'.  Old Low 
Franconian has the derivative _(gi)blakmalod_ ("black-painted") 'decorated 
with (blackened) engravings'.  Burgundian (like Gothic an East Germanic 
language) has _blaka_ 'black earth', 'black soil', 'blackness'.

*_Blak_ seems to be the older word for 'black' (rather than 'dark'), and it 
appears to be related to Germanic *_blǽkkan-_ (*_bl{ae'}kkan-_) 'burnt', 
'scorched', cognate of Greek φλέγειν _flégein_ 'to burn', 'to scorch'.  The 
Low Saxon meaning 'ink' makes sense in that ink used to be made from soot 
and charcoal.

What would we Lowlands etimo-aficionados do without our Heather?

Regards, and have a nice Sunday!
Reinhard/Ron

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