LL-L "Morphology" 2005.10.21 (02) [E]

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21 October 2005 * Volume 02
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.10.20 (05) [E]

We don't know that in Low Saxon in the Netherlands, nor in Dutch.
But, something a bit similar, I know from Brabant dialects, but
maybe that is more somthing like a genitive turned into a personal dative.

Persons, especially proper names but also words that denote family names
like Oma, Opa, Ma, Pa etc get the old genitive suffix when in dative.
So: -s after a vowel, -e after a consonant. This happen to be the same
suffixes as the plural suffixes. Btw the modern genitive suffix, both in
Dutch and Brabants, is always -s.

Oma = grandmother
ik gao naor Omas = I'm going to (visit) grandmother
hedde Omas bril ok gezien? = have you seen granny's glasses?

Tôn = Anthony
ik gif dä an Tônne = I'll give it to Anthony
dì is Tôns hös = this is Anthony's house

Fikkie = general dog's name
dä butje is af Fikkies = that bone is Fikkie's
dä's Fikkies butje = that's Fikkie's bone

In Standard Dutch the above sentences would be:

ik ga naar Oma
heb je Oma's brik ook gezien?
ik geef het aan Toon
dit is Toons huis
dat botje is van Fikkie
dat is Fikkies botje

Regards
Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Morphology
>
>Dear Lowlanders,
>
>In some dialects of Low Saxon in Germany it is possible to mark objects
>(direct and indirect) with /-n/, but only if these are persons.  This is
>very similar in Yiddish.
>
>Low Saxon:
>
>Vraag' Hinricken!
><Fraag' Hinricken!>
>("Ask Hinrick [first name or surname]!")
>
>Gistern hev ik Köstern seyn.
><Gistern heff ik Köstern sehn.>
>("Yesterday have I Köster ['(the) sexton' or surname] seen.")
>
>Ik help Moudern in de koek.
><Ik help Modern in de Köök.>
>("I help Mother [Mouder] in the kitchen.")
>
>Yiddish:
>
>פֿרעג אברהמען!
>Freg Avreymen!
>("Ask Avrom [< Avraham = Abraham]!")
>
>The suffic _-(e)n_ may be* used to mark names as objects, which includes
>nouns that are titles and are used like names (e.g., "Mother," "Cook,"
>"Gardner," "Nanny").  (*In Low Saxon it is a matter of choice, while in
many
>Yiddish dialects it is mandatory.)  Note that this can not apply to
ordinary
>nouns, e.g.,
>
>Low Saxon:
>
>Vraag' Vadder(n)!
><Fraag' Vadder(n)!>
>("Ask Father/Dad!")
>
>Vraag' dyn vadder!
><Fraag' dien Vadder!>
>("Ask your father!")
>
>However, in Yiddish it does apply to certain definite masculine nouns;
e.g.,
>
>פֿרעג דײַן טאטען!
>Freg dayn taten!
>("Ask your father [tate]!")
>
>מען דארף ברע גען דען רבן.
>Men darf brengen den rebn.
>("One/people must/ought to bring/fetch the rabbi [reb].")
>
>My question is if this feature is found in other Lowlands language
varieties
>as well or if it is an inherently southern, German feature that spilled
over
>into Low Saxon.
>
>Thanks and regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Marphology

Thanks a lot, Ingmar.

> ik gao naor Omas = I'm going to (visit) grandmother

This seems much like in English, where in such cases the genitive remains 
before omitted "place," "house," etc.:

I'm going to grandma's.
We spent some time at Uncle Jake's.
We had a great time at Jim and Barb's tonight.

But not ...
* We had a great time at theirs last night.
* Thanks. We had a great time at yours last night.

That would be:

We had a great time at their place/house/home last night.
Thanks. We had a great time at your place/house/home last night.

This construction is also used for businesses, where "shop" is omitted; 
etc.:

I'm going to the greengrocer's.
Where's the nearest fishmonger's?

Of course, this sounds very British and a bit dated.  If in American you say 
a thing like ...

Don't forget to pick up your coat from the drycleaners!

... speakers appear to think of it as plural, though perhaps it is rooted in 
...

Don't forget to pick up your coat from the drycleaner's!

In Low Saxon of Germany we use _by_ (<bi>) and no genitive.  Like French 
_chez_, it implies place, equivalent of English "at ...'s".  In the case of 
moving to or from, also no genitive form is used:

Ik ga na Ouma.
I'm going to grandma's.

Ik ga na er.
I'm going to her place.

Wy sünd by Hinnerk Oum west.
We've been at Uncle Henry's.

Wy sünd by em west.
We've been at his place.

Dat was man bannig kommodig by Jan un Greten vunavend.
It was pretty pleasant at John and Meg's tonight.

Dat was man bannig kommodig by jüm vunavend.
It was pretty pleasant at their place tonight.

I ga na d'n groynhoyker.
I'm going to the greengrocer's.

Wouneem vindt sik hyr 'n vischhoyker?
Where's the nearest fishmonger's around here?

I wonder ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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