LL-L "Morphology" 2005.10.21 (04) [E]

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21 October 2005 * Volume 04
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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.10.21 (02) [E]

>
Persons, especially proper names but also words that denote family names
like Oma, Opa, Ma, Pa etc get the old genitive suffix when in dative.<

Sorry but am I being very thick here ?  I cannot see any dative use in the
examples given ( bar one) .

Oma = grandmother
ik gao naor Omas = I'm going to (visit) grandmother

I agree with Ron here. This is an abbreviation of -  I am going to Granny's

hedde Omas bril ok gezien? = have you seen granny's glasses?
Straight forward genitive

Tôn = Anthony
ik gif dä an Tônne = I'll give it to Anthony
Agreed this is a dative but this is an old dative ending anyway  like zu
Hause
so no connection with genitive

dì is Tôns hös = this is Anthony's house
Straight forward genitive

Fikkie = general dog's name
dä butje is af Fikkies = that bone is Fikkie's
Straight forward genitive

dä's Fikkies butje = that's Fikkie's bone
Straight forward genitive

Heather

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.10.21 (02) [E]

Yes, now that you mention it... that Brabant construction looks like the
English usage!
But not in all cases: "ik gif dä an Omas/an Tônne" I give it to granny/Tony
Oma and Tôn have -s/-e, but English doesn't have an -'s there.
The interesting thing is that it does not appear in the rest of Dutch and
its varieties, and that the modern genitive suffix -s isn't used in all
cases here, but a much older form in -e.

Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Marphology
>
>Thanks a lot, Ingmar.
>
>> ik gao naor Omas = I'm going to (visit) grandmother
>
>This seems much like in English, where in such cases the genitive remains
>before omitted "place," "house," etc.:
>
>I'm going to grandma's.
>We spent some time at Uncle Jake's.
>We had a great time at Jim and Barb's tonight.
>
>But not ...
>* We had a great time at theirs last night.
>* Thanks. We had a great time at yours last night.
>
>That would be:
>
>We had a great time at their place/house/home last night.
>Thanks. We had a great time at your place/house/home last night.
>
>This construction is also used for businesses, where "shop" is omitted;
>etc.:
>
>I'm going to the greengrocer's.
>Where's the nearest fishmonger's?
>
>Of course, this sounds very British and a bit dated.  If in American you
say
>a thing like ...
>
>Don't forget to pick up your coat from the drycleaners!
>
>... speakers appear to think of it as plural, though perhaps it is rooted
in
>...
>
>Don't forget to pick up your coat from the drycleaner's!

>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
>Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.10.20 (05) [E]
>
>We don't know that in Low Saxon in the Netherlands, nor in Dutch.
>But, something a bit similar, I know from Brabant dialects, but
>maybe that is more somthing like a genitive turned into a personal dative.
>
>Persons, especially proper names but also words that denote family names
>like Oma, Opa, Ma, Pa etc get the old genitive suffix when in dative.
>So: -s after a vowel, -e after a consonant. This happen to be the same
>suffixes as the plural suffixes. Btw the modern genitive suffix, both in
>Dutch and Brabants, is always -s.
>
>Oma = grandmother
>ik gao naor Omas = I'm going to (visit) grandmother
>hedde Omas bril ok gezien? = have you seen granny's glasses?
>
>Tôn = Anthony
>ik gif dä an Tônne = I'll give it to Anthony
>dì is Tôns hös = this is Anthony's house
>
>Fikkie = general dog's name
>dä butje is af Fikkies = that bone is Fikkie's
>dä's Fikkies butje = that's Fikkie's bone
>
>In Standard Dutch the above sentences would be:
>
>ik ga naar Oma
>heb je Oma's brik ook gezien?
>ik geef het aan Toon
>dit is Toons huis
>dat botje is van Fikkie
>dat is Fikkies botje
>
>Regards
>Ingmar 

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