LL-L "Language survival" 2005.09.07 (04) [E]

Wed Sep 7 14:35:39 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2005.09.06 (06) [E]

Criostóir wrote:
> Immersion education in indigenous languages absolutely _is_ better than
the
> nothing you seem to be championing.

Heavens no, I'm not championing that. I just have my doubts whether it will
work at all. Are those new speakers of Irish really using the language, or
is it just another case of "don't know much about the French I took"? Is it
really possible for a language to rise like Phoenix from the ashes like
that? I would love to believe that, but I have yet to be convinced.

Also, Lower Saxon is in some ways different from Irish, for example, because
it is so close to German that the two are much harder to keep separate than
Irish and English, for instance (see Ron's "Patentplatt" examples).

Anyway, it is always a good idea to point out the "other" arguments as well,
especially in a community where everybody basically has the same goals, in
order to get a complete picture. Blame my scientific background; a theory
isn't worth a thing if it can't deal with the "yes, buts".

As to "indigenous": keep in mind that, despite my eloquence in English, I am
not a native speaker. I wasn't sure whether using that word in this context
was politically correct, so I put it in quotation marks in order not to
offend anyone. Which you found offensive. >sigh<

Gabriele Kahn

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From: Andy Eagle <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2005.09.06 (06) [E]

heather wrote:
> I am totally against any social engineering - someone always suffers.

Doing nothing is also a form of social engineering.

Andy Eagle

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2005.09.06 (06) [E]

Heather Rendall wrote of her experience with Welsh:
"Except the children of English speaking families were made to feel 'less 
worthy' because of it. At least a 50/50 split values BOTH languages and 
cultures. Imposing as they did in the WHOLE of Wales a language that was 
very much a minority, many English speaking Welsh children were less well 
off and suffered as a result."

Welsh is absolutely not "imposed on the whole of Wales" to the detriment of 
English. There is equal bilingualism in English and Welsh across the entire 
country - even in Welsh speaking districts. In some areas Welsh 
predominates, in most parts English predominates. In the vast area of 
contact in between English usually dominates. Even in supposedly 
Welsh-speaking areas such as Carmarthen and Aberystwyth one is only likely 
to hear Welsh privately. Public discourse is through English - that's why 
English-speaking holiday homeowners can get by so well. Presently in Wales 
one can choose a Welsh-speaking life or an English-speaking life, and abo! 
ut seventy-five per cent of the population adopt the latter. So I find it 
hard to empathise with anyone who claims English is under threat in Wales, 
or who claims that English speaking children are disadvantaged without 
acknowledging that in many places Welsh speakers are similarly 
disadvantaged.

"Especially in the early days. Believe me! I have three grown-up children 
who still smart from the recollections of how they were treated. Because 
they were isolated from their Welsh friends (quite literally) in school and 
the Welsh children were told not to play with the English or to speak 
English, divisions arose that had not existed before, based entirely on 
language. Very dangerous and regretable."

If you look at the census, a good proportion of Welsh speakers were not born 
in Wales. These people have made a decision to integrate. It seems to me 
that if English speakers move into Welsh speaking areas and steadfastly 
refuse to adopt the community language, it is hardly a surprise they are 
isolated. Welsh is no more difficult a language to learn than any other, 
particularly in an immersion environment. After all, that is how most 
immigrants learn languages - by necessity.

"I had hoped my children would receive a bi-lingual educ! ation. Instead 
they received a not-for-you-unless-on-our-terms education."

What is wrong with that? Please explain why a Welsh medium school (which is 
what I presume you are describing) should make concessions to English when 
English is the language such schooling is intended to remedy.

"I am totally against any social engineering - someone always suffers."

That's interesting. From your post it sounds like you're against social 
engineering except when it's in the interests of English. Are you, for 
instance, against immigrants to England (Welsh speaking or Panjabi speaking, 
let's say), being immersed in English-medium education? Are you against 
immigrants to England being made to use English in their daily lives? Are 
you against a knowledge of English being necessary for migration to 
Australia, Canada or the United States? I doubt you are, because you 
consider that "necessary". Yet as soon as someone dares insist you speak 
Welsh in a Welsh-language school ! or Welsh-speaking area, you consider it 
"social engineering".

"If the Welsh had wanted to speak Welsh, (as they did in our area) then they 
would have continued to speak it (as they did in our area) but the greatest 
proponents of Let's rather speak English were the middle class Welsh from 
the 19th century onwards in order to have greater job opportunities."

Blame the victim.

"The 'wonder' that Welsh teaching has created is based simply on the fact 
that you could not (cannot?) get a job without being able to speak Welsh. 
Hence the incentive!"

Considering most Welsh speakers are forced to use English at work, I think 
this point is nothing more than a slur. I cannot think of any situation 
whereby an English speaker would be forced to muddle through in a 
Welsh-speaking work environment.

"If the same rule were installed throughout Europe, Welsh would become the 
lingua franca of the continent!"

I'd rather Welsh were than English, judging by the attitudes you expressed 
in your post.

"Language follows jobs. It is a matter of simple economics."

Let's all speak English, then. No need for Welsh, Cornish, Irish, Low Saxon, 
Limburgish, Dutch, Afrikaans, Scots... in fact, no need for this list. Or, 
to put it another way, if the economy of Wales demands that Welsh be 
necessary to get jobs (as you insist it does), according to your logic you 
should have been eagerly insisting your children take up Welsh. Simple 
economics, you see.

"What is invidious wherever it happens and whoe! ver says it, is the 
disparaging of one language and its belittling by the other."

But you have disparaged Welsh and belittled it in favour of English. You 
can't have it both ways. You can't present yourself and your children as the 
victims of Welsh domination whilst calling for domination of English 
yourself.

"It would have been GOOD to see 50/50 education and BOTH languages equally 
valued."

This comment is a fig leaf afterthought, judging by the English-only content 
of most of your post.

"Boy! Did you touch a raw nerve!"

Yes, you did.

"Guess what: when we did complain - no-one listened and people's jobs were 
put on the line! Neil Kinnock tried to support a more tolerant attitude and 
to my everlasting shame I was too fearful about my job to put my head above 
the parapet and write to support him. ( I did, once I had moved out of 
Wales! What a miserable coward I am!)"

You didn't have to move to a Welsh-speaking area in the first place. Simple 
economics, you know. You could have made a rational choice to remain in an 
English-speaking area and not inflict the invidious privilege of Welsh on 
yourself or your children.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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