LL-L "Language acquisition" 2005.09.14 (06) [E/S]

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language acquisition" 2005.09.14 (01) [E]

>In constructing a phrase like "the black cat" I think the process is
essentially same in any language:

in English, say "the black cat";
in French, say "le chat noir";
in German, say "die schwarze Katze";
in Dutch, say "de zwarte kat";

and so on.<

You have missed my point.

The steps were retrieval steps for a neural network - which is subliminal
i.e. I am not suggesting that people use the steps by rote.

The process cannot be the same in any language
Try taking the noun away from the examples above

in English, say "the black .........;   correct whatever noun you choose
next - even a plural one
in French, say "le ........." can only be followed by a masc singular noun
that doesn't start with a vowel.
in German, say "die schwarze ......";  can be followed by any feminine
singular noun
in Dutch, say "de zwarte ..... "; I don;t know any Dutch but take it that
only singular nouns of a certain gender can follow.

This makes English very confidence building in the early stages because you
KNOW you are right once you start off saying : The
black..................... crows:   The black .............. dog.  The
black ........... anything you like.

Early success boosts enthusiasm.
The reverse is also true.
Initial difficulties are depressing.

Heather

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language acquisition" 2005.09.14 (01) [E]

>
So, yes, although they took very different appoaches, I suppose that all
three of my daughters are points in case for what Ron stated above.<

These are great examples. May I store them and quote from them, when
talking with teachers?

I collect good examples of how the brain works with its multi-languages.

My brother-in-law now living in Spain with bilingual children, told me this
anecdote:
he has two friends: she is English: he is Spanish. they have a daughter.
When Dad calles daughter by her name, she replies in Spanish:
when Mum calls her by name, she answers in English.
The prompt is the same: someone calling just  her name: but the response
depends on who is calling.

Similarly my Welsh speaking friend who found it almost impossible to speak
Welsh with me because
"When I look at Heather, I think in English"

In fact her household was a marvellous example of how bilingualism becomes
automatic:
Although both Welsh speakers from Anglesey, the parents met in Liverpool in
an English speaking milieu - so they speak English to each other
Their eldest son was born in Liverpool and both parents speak English with
him.
The daughter however was born after they had moved back to Anglesey and all
three speak Welsh to her.

So if Dad in the garden wants to pass a message to Mum upstairs via the two
children it might go like this

Dad passess message in English to son in kitchen who passes it in Welsh to
sister in sitting room who calls up to Mum in Welsh. Mum replies in Welsh
to daughter, who passes on the reply in Welsh to brother, who passes it on
to Dad in English.

And none of them see anything to be astonished about their behaviour -
which left me full of admiration for such effortless bilingualism. And
envious that I didn't have that kind of background.

I am also keeping anecdotes/ evidence about people who in old age or
post-stroke or after brain injury return to their mother tongue and lose
their other more recent language acquisitions.

Heather

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From: Isaac M. Davis <isaacmacdonalddavis at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language acquisition" 2005.09.14 (01) [E]


Heather wrote:

> Let us just take a simple straightforward description of an object.
>
> In order to describe a certain black cat in English all you have to do is
>
> 1. Say / write 'the'
> 2. Say/write 'black'
> 3. Say/write 'cat'
>
> All 3 of these are invariables and therefore require a simple cognitive
> procedure for recall and retrieval.

Sandy wrate:

> I don't really agree that there are no "checks" (like you describe for
> French and German) to be done for this phrase in English.
>
> For example, a "check" that non-native speakers have particular difficulty
> with is checking whether the article is required, and which article is
> required, so let's add that:
>
> 1. Find out / check/  know whether we are talking about cats in general
> ("a"), a specific cat ("the") or a nickname (no article).
>
> Yes, you'd still have to do this in French and German, but not in a large
> number of other languages such as Russian.
>
> > Now do the same in French
> >
> > 1.Find out / check/  know the gender of 'chat'
> > 2. Work out whether you need to use le/la/l'
> > 3. Work out the form of the adjective to match
> > 4. Find out / check/ know the position of the adjective
> > 5. Put 2 and 4 together with 'chat' either in the order    2 chat 4   or 
> > 2
> > 4 chat
>
> This list, on the other hand, seems pointlessly inflated. Steps 2 and 3
> could be said to be already done as soon as you know the gender. Or put it
> another way, just how much work is involved in each step? Nobody knows.
>
> And I suspect nobody ever will, because people don't do all those checks
> when speaking a language. When I did French in school I couldn't deal with
> all this gender business and everything - following the sort of steps 
> you've
> outlined made building a sentence in French extremely tedious. On the 
> other
> hand when I started using French in France it was easy - I simply didn't
> think about gender and waited for things to get ironed out with usage.
>
> In constructing a phrase like "the black cat" I think the process is
> essentially same in any language:
>
> in English, say "the black cat";
> in French, say "le chat noir";
> in German, say "die schwarze Katze";
> in Dutch, say "de zwarte kat";
>
> and so on.
>
> The point is that a vast number of simple phrases - or perhaps I should 
> say
> a vast number of simple sentences - become so familiar that you can say 
> them
> without any real processing at all. Less familiar sentences are perhaps
> simple transformations of these basic sentences.
>
> I suspect that the human brain is so good at processing language that any
> consideration of relative difficulty between languages in terms of grammar
> is swamped by the ability to memorise, compare and adapt utterances 
> without
> worrying about grammar.
>
> Perhaps the problems you see are more of the teachers' than the learners'
> problems. Teachers seem to prefer to teach grammar and vocabulary and show
> how to build sentences from them, whereas learners would perhaps be better
> off just learning masses of stuff and how to adapt it.

Weel-pat. Whan A leart French weel, that's hoo A did it; A haed no patience 
for gender, an whan it wisnae obvious, A thocht o an ensaumple: e.g. _du_ 
lait, sae 'lait' is masculine. Tae begin wi, A didna hae the 'gender 
confusion' sae bad as maist Anglophones; A notice clues tae gender, an 
there's a heap, maistly wi anes that cam fae Laitin nouns o the first an 
seicont declension. Oniewey, whan A didna knaw the gender, A didna wirrie 
aboot it, an A keepit ma ears open for ensaumples in the speech o native 
speakers. Whan a haurd an ensaumple, A wid mynd it like ye say, "le chat", 
"du vin", etc. An neist time, A haed an ensaumple for that ane.

A wis heaps less awaur o the process at the time, bit noo, A can see it 
clear.

Well-put. When I learnt French well, that's how I did it; I had no patience 
for gender, and when it wasn't obvious, I thought of an example: e.g. _du_ 
lait, so 'lait' is masculine. To begin with, I didn't have the 'gender 
confusion' as badly as most Anglophones; I notice clues to gender, and 
there's lots, mostly with ones that come from Latin nouns of the first and 
second declension. Anyway, when I didn't know the gender, I didn't worry 
about it, and I kept my ears open for examples in the speech of native 
speakers. When I heard an example, I would remember it like you say, "le 
chat", "du vin", etc. And next time, I had an example for that one.

I was a lot less aware of the process at the time, but now, I can see it 
clearly.

Fair faw,

Isaac M. Davis

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